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Thread: Anything bad to say against Mackenzie recone kits?

  1. #16
    Senior Member Eaulive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1audiohack View Post
    If you have ever done any thorough speaker testing it becomes apparent that there are probably a hundred things that can go wrong in trying to knock off a cone kit exactly. Think about the paper science itself.

    If someone does it right, the success will not have come easily and don't be suprized that the cost may be even higher than the JBL kits.
    I agree that R&D was a very serious endeavour at JBL, but today this is done and one only has to replicate, like Lee said, it's mass produced and not that hard to make.

    Proof is they're making it already, maybe they're not as spec, but the work of building them is the same.

  2. #17
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaulive View Post
    I agree that R&D was a very serious endeavour at JBL, but today this is done and one only has to replicate, like Lee said, it's mass produced and not that hard to make.
    Then why are they not flooding the market with correct kits now?


    Proof is they're making it already, maybe they're not as spec, but the work of building them is the same.
    Do you not see the contradiction in that statement?
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

  3. #18
    Senior Member Eaulive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1audiohack View Post
    Then why are they not flooding the market with correct kits now?




    Do you not see the contradiction in that statement?
    What I meant is that if they're not to spec, it's maybe not because of craftsmenship but just because they don't know the correct specs. It's a wild guess here, maybe they don't care about the exact spec also.
    Once you set up a machine to edgewind copper ribbon, making it to spec or not does not involve more or less work, you just have to set the correct number of turns.

    When you glue the former to the cone and spider, making it as JBL intended is only a matter of knowing where, at what depth, not how.

    As easy it is to make it wrong, it is to make it right, I guess.

  4. #19
    Senior Member Lee in Montreal's Avatar
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    Making a part properly is not more difficult than making it wrong. It only has to do with starting on the right foot and setting up the job properly.

    if I were a JBL collector, I'd maybe spend extra for the original part just to show my friends the white greasy pen in the back of the cone. But as a user who might blow a few cones in the driver's lifetime, paying $80 instread of $240 makes a difference, especially if the sound was to be identical.

  5. #20
    Senior Member edgewound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee in Montreal View Post
    Making a part properly is not more difficult than making it wrong. It only has to do with starting on the right foot and setting up the job properly.

    if I were a JBL collector, I'd maybe spend extra for the original part just to show my friends the white greasy pen in the back of the cone. But as a user who might blow a few cones in the driver's lifetime, paying $80 instread of $240 makes a difference, especially if the sound was to be identical.
    Some of you guys make this sound as if it's so easy to knock-off JBL moving assemblies with precision. Especially these people that can't get factory parts. Proof is in the pictures.

    It doesn't take many $80 blown-up recones to amount to buying the right stuff that will give the expected performance for years to come...even decades to come.

    I had a regular customer recently bring in 2 fried 2241G that were reconed by the regional aftermarket hack that claims he uses the "same parts that JBL uses". Not true in the least.

    Moral of the story...customer wasted nearly twice as much money by trying to save money. I showed him the differences between the parts. He was not amused at his folly.
    Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
    Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA

  6. #21
    Senior Member Eaulive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgewound View Post
    Some of you guys make this sound as if it's so easy to knock-off JBL moving assemblies with precision. Especially these people that can't get factory parts. Proof is in the pictures.

    It doesn't take many $80 blown-up recones to amount to buying the right stuff that will give the expected performance for years to come...even decades to come.

    I had a regular customer recently bring in 2 fried 2241G that were reconed by the regional aftermarket hack that claims he uses the "same parts that JBL uses". Not true in the least.

    Moral of the story...customer wasted nearly twice as much money by trying to save money. I showed him the differences between the parts. He was not amused at his folly.
    Well, if the supplier of aftermarket makes false claims like "it's all JBL" when it's not, it's another story and I agree with you.

  7. #22
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Well, if the supplier of aftermarket makes false claims like "it's all JBL" when it's not, it's another story and I agree with you.
    Well the issue as I see it is that by selling aftermarket kits for JBL'S they are implying that they are equivalent. I have never seen a disclaimer on an aftermarket kit that states it may not offer the same performance. If they tell you up front that they are not the same and may sound different fine. If they offer them as a cheaper alternative and leave the performance part out that doesn't seem quite right to me.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  8. #23
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    Several kits are already NLA, and the number is growing. JBL does not seem to care that much about the vintage drivers, and any sota driver bought today and used at home will be vintage when it will need a recone... In fact they don't even sell recone kits anymore for these: as 4313b told us they send you a new replacement driver instead. But how long will they be willing to keep these replacement drivers around?? The 476Be is already NLA, how many replacement drivers do they have? The LE14H-3 also is....

    Face it: as the lansing heritage group we have to take care of this issue before it is too late. We could contact Hawley, Mogami, Brush Wellman, ... and see what can be done.

    Experimented JBL reconers like Edgewound would be great resources to maybe build something similar to GPA, for JBL drivers? Among all the former JBL employees that we have here, and all those that recently lost their jobs, something ought to be done!

  9. #24
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pos View Post
    ...they send you a new replacement driver instead. But how long will they be willing to keep these replacement drivers around?? The 476Be is already NLA, how many replacement drivers do they have? The LE14H-3 also is....
    The 476Be and LE14H-3 are both still in current product being made and sold today so I don't think these drivers are NLA. That said, I do get your point and agree with you. It is a real shame that JBL is changing their business model to a more short sighted profit driven model. This may get reversed at some point, but for now, we do need to do our research before we buy a blown driver that can not be properly repaired.


    Widget

  10. #25
    Senior Member svollmer's Avatar
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    As I asked before, assuming that there are no aftermarket kits equivalent in quality and specs to JBL's kits, am I allowed to purchase a JBL kit without having to pay someone "authorized" to install it? If so, where?

  11. #26
    Senior Member edgewound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svollmer View Post
    As I asked before, assuming that there are no aftermarket kits equivalent in quality and specs to JBL's kits, am I allowed to purchase a JBL kit without having to pay someone "authorized" to install it? If so, where?
    This isn't a new question, but maybe if Mr. Widget or one of the other fine moderators sees this post and sees fit, it can be added as a sticky.

    It's explicitly a violation of JBL's Factory Authorized Service Agency Agreement to sell Genuine JBL recone kits over-the-counter to non-authorized servicers. This policy does not apply for sales of replacement diaphragms for compression drivers or tweeters that are bolt-in parts. A warranty disclaimer is enclosed with every replacement part, and the warranty is the same for recone kits and replacement diaphragms.

    If you purchase a Genuine JBL recone kit for self-installation you won't be covered by any type of factory warranty against defects or workmanship. The factory warranty for recones is 90 days. If you purchase a recone kit over-the-counter from a JBL Authorized Service Agency, the Service Agency is in violation of the Service Agency Agreement. The Service Agency Agreement is in place to protect all parties involved...especially, the customer.

    The majority of the cost of a Genuine JBL recone is in the parts. The labor charge is nominal, and actually pretty cheap insurance that the job is supposed to be done correctly. Yes, there is a profit margin in the parts for Authorized Service Agencies, and that is part of the equation for hopefully staying in business...along with having customers referred by satisfied customers. Car dealers operate on the same principle.

    With the above stated...It's the customer's choice to choose how to spend his money, and the Service Agency can set his own pricing. If the Service Agency offers a less expensive alternative in aftermarket parts when the transducer is beyond the factory warranty, that's between the customer and the Service Agency. If the Service Agency claims that his aftermarket parts meet or exceed OEM specifications he should be able to document it. Otherwise, you should expect to get what you paid for...diminished performance.

    Also...If an In-Warranty JBL product is damaged by end-user mis-use or abuse, the JBL Authorized Service Agency is required to repair the unit with correct factory parts specified to maintain the remainder of the factory warranty. If the customer doesn't want to pay for Genuine JBL Parts and requests a less expensive alternative, he must be advised that the factory warranty will be voided and accept the responsibility for possible failure due to parts and workmanship. The Service Agency can offer his own warranty as an alternative, if available. All covered In-Warranty repairs due to factory defects must be completed with factory specified parts to maintain the remainder of the factory warranty coverage.

    Lastly...If Genuine JBL replacement parts are no longer available from the factory and aftermarket parts are the only alternative for repair, your repair is going to be only as good as the servicer can provide...and some are better than others as we've all experienced at some point.

    Hope this helps answer some questions about restoring and maintaining your beloved JBL drivers.
    Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
    Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA

  12. #27
    Senior Member svollmer's Avatar
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    Only $42 labor to recone an 18" JBL!!! Now I feel like an idiot for grumbling about not being able to buy a real JBL kit to install myself to save some money.

    $42 is CHEAP to have a professional do the work and provide the warranty. Thanks very much for the clarification and very useful information.

    One question; can you open a franchise in the DC Metro area?

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaulive View Post
    Just for fun, could you provide the VC length for 2225 and E140? Do you know about offsets and the details involved in making a cone/VC/spider assembly a genuine JBL cone?

    JBL 2225H

    Total weight of assembled cone. 86g.
    Add 2g. for dust cap. Glue weight for dust cap dependent on artist!
    Coil former height. 1.125"
    Coil winding height .680"

  14. #29
    Member ds23man's Avatar
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    Is this a original or remake?

    Regards Gerhard

  15. #30
    Senior Member Eaulive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John View Post
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    JBL 2225H

    Total weight of assembled cone. 86g.
    Add 2g. for dust cap. Glue weight for dust cap dependent on artist!
    Coil former height. 1.125"
    Coil winding height .680"
    Hey, thanks a bunch!
    Now we need a guinea pig to try the AM cone
    I for one have 4 original cones on the way

    Anybody could do he same for a C8RE140?

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