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Thread: Anything bad to say against Mackenzie recone kits?

  1. #91
    Senior Member edgewound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4313B View Post
    Harman/JBL sources all of their drivers from different vendors (one of them used to be JBL Professional Manufacturing in Northridge until some jackass saw fit to disassemble it). I know many of the smaller Synthesis drivers are made in China. Some of the engineering is also done in China. A visiting Chinese engineer actually designed all the mf and lf inverted dome transducers in the JBL Performance Series with our favorite JBL engineer overseeing the endeavor.
    My current JBL Pro stuff says Made In Mexico. Recone kits and replacement diaphragms.

    The large edgewound voice coils are still made with same construction techniques used in the 1980's.
    Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
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  2. #92
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    Yep, alot of the TOLT drivers are now made in Mexico as are the kits (JBL Pro Manufacturing).

    For example, Synthesis 6 and Synthesis 8 drivers for the SAM series are built by GGEC in China as were the eight and ten inch drivers in the Array Series. The LE14H-3 in the largest Array comes from JBL Pro Manufacturing.

    There are other suppliers including Audax. Nexus is in there somewhere, I don't know if they made the 1500AL for awhile or not. I've lost track.


    As for recone kits, I recently compared two C8R2245H kits from Mexico to several I already had on hand from years ago and they were identical. On the other hand, all the C8R2121 kits I recently received were junk.

  3. #93
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    GGEC:

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...highlight=GGEC

    The Po Yun and Precision Econowind was in a 2009 issue of Voice Coil magazine...I will have to dig through them and see which issue it is, and if I still have the print issue.

    And with Loudspeaker Components acquiring Nu-Way, there are about 5 companies in the US making soft parts. Which Nu-Way had established a factory in Mexico before the buy out. Mogami also has plants in the US and Mexico...but they've been acquired by Pioneer Electronics.

    So what, you have a problem with someone having a low post count?

    I joined this week so I could have access to the classifieds because I am wanting a trio of 2118s for my car. And I wanted to see if there was any more information about the 226J and 228H here that I couldn't find elsewhere.

    I have no relation the HI. I do know the Global Director of Mobile Audio for JBL...he's a member of a forum that I am a moderator on. I used to compete against a lot of Team JBL cars when I competed IASCA.

    Tell you what, over on the forum that I am a moderator on (DIY Mobile Audio), we have a Klippel Distortion Analyzer with all of the goodies except for the laser. If you wanted a really really really detailed analysis of a speaker, we can do it for you there. So we can measure a stock 2118H and a reconed 2118H with an aftermarket kit and see EXACTLY how far these kits are apart from each other. We can do all of the tests that Zaph et. al do- multi tone distortion tests, waterfall plots, distortion tests, and we do BL(x), Bl, Cms, Kms symmetry. Le(x), which parts of the speaker are the most prominent distortion sources, T/S from a WT2. If anyone wants to really see how good or bad the aftermarket kits are compared to OEM, we can do it there...only thing is his jig as of now is limited to speakers about 8". We will be doing subwoofers as soon as he makes a larger jig.

  4. #94
    Senior Member tomt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgewound View Post
    The thing that's hard to grasp is your supposed expertise in this subject. You're now up to post number 11. Apparently you just joined this week to school us on JBL lore. Why is that?

    Harman's manufacturing base is now in Mexico with R&D and prototyping still in Northridge.. BTW...What is your relationship with Harman and from where do you get your info?

    another thing thats hard to grasp is your enthusiasm

    for some kind of fight.

    that sort of immaturity doesn't help us much.

    Quote Originally Posted by edgewound View Post
    My current JBL Pro stuff says Made In Mexico. Recone kits and replacement diaphragms. The large edgewound voice coils are still made with same construction techniques used in the 1980's.

    precision econowind, having their own machinery,

    and personnel to build and run the same,

    doesn't preclude the jbl voice coils from being made in china.


    as far as something looking the same as,

    look here -

    http://www.lmaudio.net/cp_l.aspx?ddiqu=佛山

  5. #95
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    I'm pretty sure the voice coils for the loudspeakers made in Mexico are wound in Mexico.
    I'm pretty sure the voice coils for the loudspeakers made in China are wound in China.

  6. #96
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    While I suppose it is moderately interesting where a Global Corporation has it's various bits and pieces manufactured, what does any of this have to do with Mackenzie?


    Widget

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    While I suppose it is moderately interesting where a Global Corporation has it's various bits and pieces manufactured, what does any of this have to do with Mackenzie?


    Widget
    We want to tour their Scottish assembly plant so we can take side excursions to some Scotch distilleries?

  8. #98
    Senior Member edgewound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomt View Post
    another thing thats hard to grasp is your enthusiasm

    for some kind of fight.

    that sort of immaturity doesn't help us much.




    precision econowind, having their own machinery,

    and personnel to build and run the same,

    doesn't preclude the jbl voice coils from being made in china.


    as far as something looking the same as,

    look here -

    http://www.lmaudio.net/cp_l.aspx?ddiqu=佛山
    My enthusiasm isn't for a fight. It's for accurate information. I'm just as disgusted as everyone at the dismantling of of Harman/JBL....but lets keep the facts straight.

    BTW, Winslow I'm looking at the 2009 Loudspeaker Industry Sourcebook ad on page 63 where the Precision Econowind ad is located. They are an American agent of Po Yun. Precision Econowind is a privately owned American company, according to their own website. They will also make voice coils to order for anyone that will pay for them, and they do have tooling that will fit JBL drivers. I've seen them.

    But....Everything JBL is not made in China. The top-line and legacy parts are still made in North America. The parts I've received in the last few months have been up to Northridge standards...which has been a long road to get straightened out.

    I will still stand by my accounts that I've not yet seen an aftermarket recone that stands up to the OEM parts when the OEM parts are up to standard. I had a conversation with Dave Wheeler the other day about the small differences in voice coil construction that determines how well it's going to stand up under high power. Small details are important when it comes to a drivers longevity....not just the T/S parameters, or how well it tests with a Woofer Tester, Klippel, etc. BTW....T/S parameters won't predict how a loudspeaker sounds above 100 Hz. I've talked servicers that claim they tested the 2245 with a woofer tester and say the aftermarket is just as good. Well...It can't be just as good because the details aren't present that makes the 2245 sound like it does. And why pay for an aftermarket recone if you're not going to get the OEM sound or durability.

    Anyway...I'll still carry the torch till the torch burns out. Carry on. Much of the reason JBL left the the playing field here in California can be blamed on the people in Sacramento and elsewhere that hates that we make the best stuff on Earth. They might get a clue when all the tax revenue from business sources disappears completely...and manufacturing is best way to get there.
    Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
    Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA

  9. #99
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgewound View Post
    Anyway...I'll still carry the torch till the torch burns out. Carry on. Much of the reason JBL left the the playing field here in California can be blamed on the people in Sacramento and elsewhere that hates that we make the best stuff on Earth. They might get a clue when all the tax revenue from business sources disappears completely...and manufacturing is best way to get there.
    Hey Edge... no politics. On the left it is corporate greed, on the right it is governmental regulations... we've beaten it to death... no one is going to change their opinions based on an out of round voice coil debate.


    Widget

  10. #100
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    That is the beauty of the Klippel machine, it will tell you exactly where the differences are why the effect the sound. We have a few people on DIYMA who have 2118s and one who lives close the the fellow who has the machine...I am pushing for them to test the 2118, which as far as I can tell are original. I mean I love those speakers, and loved the 2204s that I had. The 2204s went to the dump because they were in need of reconing and to get them reconed with factory parts would cost more than what I could find original used 2204s for. I mean I couldn't give them away because the motors were so heavy to ship.

    Don't think that I am pro-China made equipment though. I have a friend who owned a small car speaker company called Image Dynamics, and heard many a horror story about Chinese made parts.

    I know the aftermarket isn't as good as OEM...but I wonder exactly how bad it is.

  11. #101
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    The 2118 is kind of fragile with a pretty thin cone. You won't be able to give those baskets away, either.

  12. #102
    Senior Member edgewound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by winslow View Post
    That is the beauty of the Klippel machine, it will tell you exactly where the differences are why the effect the sound. We have a few people on DIYMA who have 2118s and one who lives close the the fellow who has the machine...I am pushing for them to test the 2118, which as far as I can tell are original. I mean I love those speakers, and loved the 2204s that I had. The 2204s went to the dump because they were in need of reconing and to get them reconed with factory parts would cost more than what I could find original used 2204s for. I mean I couldn't give them away because the motors were so heavy to ship.

    Don't think that I am pro-China made equipment though. I have a friend who owned a small car speaker company called Image Dynamics, and heard many a horror story about Chinese made parts.

    I know the aftermarket isn't as good as OEM...but I wonder exactly how bad it is.
    Bummer, winslow....I've got a number of NOS 2204 kits from the late '80s. The frames also make a good candidate for some others models, like a de-powered E120...A ceramic K120, if you will.

    I've also got a number of NOS E120 frames that will accept the 2204 kit but the mid will be bumped up a bit at the expense of some low end. Never-the-less...still a beast to work with.

    How bad the after market is is in the construction/material details. Details make a huge difference. I've received parts in kit form from a respected prolific supplier and just shook my head. Voice coil and spider pretty good...cone not even close to OEM shape or cosmetics.

    Anyway...it'd be interesting to see the Klippel analysis of the 2118. It's a pretty nice driver in it's own right.
    Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
    Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA

  13. #103
    Senior Member edgewound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Hey Edge... no politics. On the left it is corporate greed, on the right it is governmental regulations... we've beaten it to death... no one is going to change their opinions based on an out of round voice coil debate.


    Widget
    I tried not to go there Widget....but sometimes if enough you-know-who's read internet opinions on what's happening in their world, they might actually do something positive for everyone.
    Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
    Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA

  14. #104
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    Well if I had listened to my heart when I built this car, I would have gone straight to the 2118s off of the bat. But I was trying to find some of that secret sauce that I love with the JBLs elsewhere...and while somethings were nice and good, it just wasn't the same. And yeah the 2118s aren't spring chickens in their own right, but I doubt they would be going anywhere for a very very long time. If I could get just a little more lowend from them, it would be the perfect speaker for a car IMO.

    And yeah, I kick myself everyday for sending those guys to their deaths. I didn't realize then one of the beauties of JBL cone drivers- that you could have several different drivers using the same basket/motor. And maybe that is what I need now...some frankenstein speaker.

    Anyways, edgewound, be looking for a PM from me asking for some help. I know like 3 JBL models that I like and maybe you could find me something more better.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgewound View Post
    My enthusiasm isn't for a fight. It's for accurate information.
    I appreciate that.
    Quote Originally Posted by edgewound View Post
    Much of the reason JBL left the the playing field here in California can be blamed on the people in Sacramento and elsewhere that hates that we make the best stuff on Earth. They might get a clue when all the tax revenue from business sources disappears completely...and manufacturing is best way to get there.
    It's probably because JBL uses chemicals that are toxic in the State of California. If you move those chemicals south of the border they magically lose their toxicity. It's really cool how it works.

    We dump all our old car batteries there too because the indigenous people are impervious to lead poisoning. They dismantle the car batteries and sell the parts for money.

    Interestingly, the company I work for moved most of their manufacturing to Mexico about the same time JBL was busy effing up their legacy. Unlike JBL, the company I work for wasn't able to entirely abandon the old plant in the U.S. because it's a toxic waste dump and they would then have to clean it up as per the EPA. See, in this country we have laws that protect people because skankwad business people would kill everything and everyone around them if given half a chance to make a buck off it. Some business people quite simply don't know how to properly behave and that's why we have regulations here. They can get away with alot more shit in other countries; For now...

    There will be a day of reckoning. Too bad their progeny will most likely be the ones who suffer.

    Quote Originally Posted by winslow View Post
    The 2204s went to the dump because they were in need of reconing and to get them reconed with factory parts would cost more than what I could find original used 2204s for. I mean I couldn't give them away because the motors were so heavy to ship.
    I had the same problem so I ripped the brand new C8R2204 kits out and put C8R121 kits in rather than throw the cores away. Those cores are excellent for making 2202H's (4350/55 restores) and 121H's (4315 replacement drivers with ports blocked), or "K120H's" as edgewound pointed out.
    Quote Originally Posted by winslow View Post
    I know the aftermarket isn't as good as OEM...but I wonder exactly how bad it is.
    Don't really care since it's the combination of the hardware and software that makes a JBL transducer.

    If you put an aftermarket kit into a JBL core please rip the foilcal off the back so no one mistakes it for a real JBL.

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