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Thread: 4435, 4430, 4425 in Control Room help please!

  1. #1
    SteveW
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    4435, 4430, 4425 in Control Room help please!

    Please provide your opinions and suggestions regarding my in-process monitoring set up. I have collected 4) 4435's, 2) 4430's, and 6) 4425's. The room is private, brand spankin' new and is designed 5.1 so it's rather large (14400 cu ft) and built to specific ratios, absorption and diffusion coefficients. Speakers are flush mounted and isolated, RFZ and all that good stuff. The 4435's are front L,R and rear L,R. The 4430's were to be the center and maybe the .1 (if used) but volume vs. gain does not match the 4435's well. I'm looking for a 4435 I guess. A bridged Crown KI amp powers each speaker. The 4425's surround an Electronic drum kit so the drummer can hear and "feel" the kit - more like an acoustic set-up. Looks like he just got some 4430's for kick and snare. Problems....since I've had most of these speakers around for a while, some of the foam surrounds are less than perfect, but most are 'intact'. An "oop's at the board" blew a horn, a woofer or two and knocked my butt on the floor. Another 15 'cracks' sometimes. Swapping these out, I found a damaged crossover and horn. It sounded like something off a football field, and it only worked when the HF attn. was at an extreme (forget whether max or min). Sounded better with another known good horn, but not right. As I am not an expert on speakers and repairs, I lucked out when a friend told me about this forum. Obviously you folks know of availability, alternatives, solutions etc. I need a recommendation of someplace to send all of my components to for repair and/or general health ck. I assume all of the woofers have been reconed or refoamed before. These speakers are going to get a real workout in this facility, and past experience has shown that they are quite durable until abused by guys like me. Geesh....the crossover is NA from JBL, one recone now for both 2234H and 2235H, JBL recone/foam or aftermarket? What diaphram? These things need to be balanced L to R too. Again, please offer suggestions that you think will help me out (besides some good limiters!) If you got this far, Thanks!

  2. #2
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Dood...

    Tons of questions. But, with the endeavor you're undertaking, assuming it's the right speaker compliment , you should send all repairs to JBL Pro. There's sufficient data to suggest there may be additional "damage" you've not yet heard, as the described events were obviously of large transient wave forms.

    It doesn't matter if baskets have been "worked-on" before. But, with the work-load you describe, you'd do well to get everything back to spec.

    Now, about that preamp. Oops - sorry, wrong Thread...
    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  3. #3
    Figge
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    so u have 12 of them amps? thats like 13000W into 8 ohm. bet it can do some damage if not used with caution.

  4. #4
    SteveW
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    All but the 4425's are bridged K1. Only the 4435's saw the spike.

  5. #5
    Figge
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    welcome aboard...and go with Bo:s advice. (i allways do)

  6. #6
    SteveW
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    Thanks for the welcome! Didn't know JBL serviced these anymore. I was hoping that a solution was less than a days drive away. Lots of parts to pack up and ship$$$$$$ Sounds like good advice. Probably more $ to fix and test at JBL, but right. True?

  7. #7
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Hey, Steve...

    The main reason I suggested that, is from your description of planned use. Otherwise, if you were merely looking to resurround these yourself, and wanted to spend a few quality weekends sniffing MEK I would've suggested that. But, with so (apparently) much and the variety of damage, I'm not clear you'll really understand and get it right unless you go through the entire downstream of your studio. You are a higher-level user than many of us on the Forum.

    Having said that, we try not suffer the sonic explosions you have!

    Anyway, while the elements are off getting refurbished you (we...?) can spend time learning about your upstream gear...

    *****

    btw - Terry has a "slapping" 15 on the B360 Thread, so you can see many are diagnosing similar symptoms.
    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  8. #8
    SteveW
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    I do not want to do the surrounds myself because (1) I've never done any (2) got a zillion other fun things to do like miles of wiring, acoustical fine tuning, the list is huge. After doing 20 years of engine and fuel system development for the auto industry, the smell of solvents bother the **** out of me. Also, I need confidence the monitors are up to snuff, and that comes from someone who knows what their doing. FYI... console is an automated analog 28 ch Series 2 Neotek. New recorder will be IZ Radar S-nyquist @192 kHz. Tape costs WAY too much now, and latest 96k + digital recorders (a couple of them anyway) are finally sounding good. The only other component planned for upsteam signal path is a couple of dbx 480 driverack units or Klark Teknik equiv. They offer a host of features (like limiters, alignment, para eq, etc). Hopefully, the room won't require EQ - nor the 4435's, and it will be just limiters of some kind. Time will tell. Is my assumption correct that JBL can test a unit and bless it, or are there some residual black juju things that only go away after a full 'rebuild'?

  9. #9
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Steve Widman
    a couple of dbx 480 driverack units or Klark Teknik equiv.
    I believe that qualifies as an oxymoron...

    Nice "rig", dood, and agree whole-heartedly about the newer 96k gear. Getting close(r)...

    Yes, JBL will fully test their rebuilds. John Nebel's had a few things redone at Northridge, and is very pleased with the results. And he's mighty picky. Here's his listening room: Blue vs Black Thread.

    But, maybe some other more informed Forumites will chime-in here. There's great depth on this bench...
    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  10. #10
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    Bridged K1,s.

    I might tend to look at how your using those crown K1,s! Do you really need that MUCH power? A K1 is 1100w@8 ohms bridge mono, 1500w@4 ohms bridge mono!

    Headroom is one thing, but you have enough power to continuosly do serious damage, even with limiters!


    This is just my opinion, but I think you might look at running the K1,s in stereo, which considering the amount of speakers you have, should give you enough sound and coverage, and be much safer to operate!

  11. #11
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    JBL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I fully recommend JBL for servicing and rebuilding your speakers! Its worth whatever you have to go through to get this done, the speakers will come back brand new!

  12. #12
    SteveW
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    According to the specs of the K1, they are rated 350W/ch. into 8 ohms/1100W bridged. The 4435's are rated to continuous 375W. JBL suggested going to the higher level because of what I'm doing to them - besides just plain monitoring/mixing. They also monitor electronic drums, 2 guitars, keyboards and maybe something else - simultaneously - while recording all signals direct. I'm thinkin' that makes an easy continuous 375W. No other amps are used. Bass is reserved for the rear 4435's. This is why the extra headroom was suggested. Sorry it wasn't shared earlier, my posts can get a bit long. FYI I did hook them up in stereo and for plain monitoring/mixing it's was fine. They may run unbridged now! The 4435's may not be the coolest thing for pure far field monitoring/listening today, but I do not know of anything else that could do all this without spending LOTS of $. They sound plenty good to me, and a few 40K Genelec guys raise an eyebrow or two as well. I've used JBL stuff for years, L100's, 11's,12's, little control 5's, etc. For me, the 44 series are the best. Instant PA in a pinch, a keyboard monitor, outdoor bon-fires, whatever.

    Anyway...surfing around this forum the last few days has been quite an education! You guys have developed one of the best forums around. Lot's of reading to do....hope you all don't mind a lot more questions. Thank you for your comments

    BTW...what should a guy expect to pay for a recone at JBL? Hmmm....quantity discount?

    Seems to me that a few of you guys could fix em' up just fine!

  13. #13
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    Yeah, but.....

    Did JBl actually specify using two Crown K1,s in bridge mono? Having more power than the 375 watt rating to me means 500 watts per speaker, possibly double the power rating, which is 750 watts per speaker, and you have practically triple the rated power! Not to mention the peak output voltage those Crowns can swing!

  14. #14
    SteveW
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    It was a process of elimination. No fans allowed. Also wanted to keep the amps local to the speakers so bridged was the only solution. They said K1 was the best way to go - but......watch the volume at the amp. I did, but a goofup with the automation is what caused me all the grief. While powering up the console a CD was being fed to a couple channels. Metering pegged at the console, as it defaulted to max gain. The amps were about halfway up. I figure they saw +20 of CD along with some square wave from the console. The automation is fixed now (i.e configured like it should have been) so won't default like that again. Fortunately(?) only one pair of 4435's got hit. BTW.... with no attenuation and bridged, the ears start to hurt with main console outputs at 3. Overkill indeed. Lookin' back, K2's (@500w ch.), and a bunch wire would have been better. Wait a minute.....didn't that JBL guy suggest that option too? Live and learn

  15. #15
    Dis Member mikebake's Avatar
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    Geez, when you get it dialed in, invite me up for a listen!!! How far is Milford from, say, Toledo?

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