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Thread: 2way speakers with E120?

  1. #1
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    2way speakers with E120?

    A guitarist friend of mine gave me a pair of E120 in good shape. Can I build hifi speakers with those? What kind of box and what kind of size would you advise? I guess an ennergic tweeter would mix up well, maybe a 075, or something like beyma cp22? thanks for your tips!

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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcomba View Post
    A guitarist friend of mine gave me a pair of E120 in good shape. Can I build hifi speakers with those?
    I built a pair of two ways decades ago with a pair of K120s for a buddy of mine. He loved them... I always thought they were a bit too lean on the bottom.


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    Senior Member Eaulive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcomba View Post
    A guitarist friend of mine gave me a pair of E120 in good shape. Can I build hifi speakers with those? What kind of box and what kind of size would you advise? I guess an ennergic tweeter would mix up well, maybe a 075, or something like beyma cp22? thanks for your tips!
    It's not really a bass producing speaker and like Widget said it will probably be kind of lean.
    On top of it it's a high efficiency speaker with little linearity and limited excursion, I think it's more intended to be a midbass unit than a true woofer.

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    Ok first, lean bass... I have a pair of jbl l112, bass is almost too much for my space, how lean would be the e120 if you compare those. No trick to fix that? Back horn? quater wave.... Does "high efficiency speaker with little linearity" means hard to filter?

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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcomba View Post
    I have a pair of jbl l112, bass is almost too much for my space, how lean would be the e120 if you compare those.
    Very lean.

    Quote Originally Posted by jcomba View Post
    No trick to fix that?
    Corner loading and filtering will help, but basically the speaker was not designed to produce much output below about 100Hz.

    Quote Originally Posted by jcomba View Post
    Does "high efficiency speaker with little linearity" means hard to filter?
    Well, it is easy to say that this speaker was designed to produce music not to reproduce music so that any non linearity would be considered a character rather than a flaw, but the fact is that this speaker is the direct descendant of the D120 which in fact was initially intended as a music reproducer. You certainly can work around it's flaws, but be aware that it will not be easy to make this speaker perform as a "hi-fi" speaker... the bass below 50-60Hz will be very difficult to get and there are numerous peaks in it's upper response.

    All that aside, the friend I made the K120 two-ways for (with an EV-T35A crossed at~4.5K) was a professional jazz musician and he loved the sound. I did not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Very lean.

    Well, it is easy to say that this speaker was designed to produce music, not to reproduce music so that any non linearity would be considered a character rather than a flaw, but the fact is that this speaker is the direct descendant of the D120 which in fact was initially intended as a music reproducer.
    Widget
    The E120 is a direct descendant of the D120 (a guitar speaker), and the D120 is a direct descendant of the D131, which in fact, was a music "reproducer".

    I was never a big fan of the D131 or the D120/E120/K120 speakers, but they were popular with other guitar players. When I created the D120, I tried to change the tone as little as possible from the D131. I personally didn't like the sound of the D120 or the D131, but others did, so I left it alone.

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    No trick to fix that?

    A proper Thiele design for the E120 without any freuency-dividing network and with ideal cables and an ideal amplifier would lead to a very small box and a -3dB frequency of ca. 160 Hz (1st alignment in Thiele's tables).

    With a real-life network, real-life cables and a real-life amplifier the total "generator resistance" as seen by the loudspeaker would be ca. 1.5 Ohms (this is "configurable"). That would lead to a small box with a -3dB frequency of ca. 140 Hz (2nd alignment in Thiele's tables).

    So 140 Hz is what You can expect. You could make the box larger and tune it lower than for a "proper design" (maximally flat), but that would lead to what Mr. Widget calls a lean bass.

    In the "Transducer Information Forum" there is a data sheet for the E120 and a frequency plot. The frequency plot shows that You cannot use the E120 for HiFi above 800 Hz - 1 kHz.

    You could use it as a low mid in a four-way disco-speaker. Or You might sell it to a guitar player.

    Ruediger

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    K110?

    Ok, so reading you all got me out of my "hey a loudspeaker, lets build something" state. However, it would be sad to just sell it or something, and I nust admit I want to try high efficiency jbl. I like my L112 pretty much, I love my le8t, so next step would be high efficiency isn't it? So I've been looking for several forums etc here localy and someone would like to exchange E120 with some reconed K110... Been looking for parameters, seems to be a window for bass reflex (and quater wave?), sansui even made some kind of monitor out of it... What do you think about that? Thanks to all for your kind help!

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    K110!

    The E110 has the following TS parameters:

    fs = 65 Hz, Vas = 1.6 cuft, Re = 6.0 Ohms, Qe = 0.4, Qm = 4.0, Qt = 0.36

    The "generator resistance" is the sum of dc-resistance in the crossover series coil, cable resistance, and amplifier output impedance.

    The total Q ("Qt") can be calculated as follows:

    1/Qt = 1/Qa + 1/Qe [ Re / (Rg + Re) ]

    Rg = 0.0 Ohms --> Qt = 0.36
    Rg = 0.5 Ohms --> Qt = 0.39
    Rg = 1.0 Ohms --> Qt = 0.42
    Rg = 1.5 Ohms --> Qt = 0.44

    Thiele's table, entry 5:

    Qt = 0.383, f3 = fs * 1.00 = 65 Hz, Vab = Vas / 1.414 = 1.14 cuft


    Thiele's table, entry 6:

    Qt = 0.415, f3 = fs * 0.87 = 57 Hz, Vab = Vas / 1.055 = 1.5 cuft

    Ruediger

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    I have got a few E120-8. My plan is to build straight horns going from 56 Hz, but crossed over at 80 Hz. They will reach 800 Hz. With a phase plug they would go even higher. If the result is not to my liking, i have a few 2202 to use instead.

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    horn design using TS parammeters

    Quote Originally Posted by more10 View Post
    I have got a few E120-8. My plan is to build straight horns going from 56 Hz, but crossed over at 80 Hz. They will reach 800 Hz. With a phase plug they would go even higher. If the result is not to my liking, i have a few 2202 to use instead.
    In the Technical References thread in the General Audio Discussions forum there is a paper from D.B. Keele about horn design using TS parammeters.

    Ruediger

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    Quote Originally Posted by more10 View Post
    I have got a few E120-8. My plan is to build straight horns going from 56 Hz, but crossed over at 80 Hz. They will reach 800 Hz. With a phase plug they would go even higher. If the result is not to my liking, i have a few 2202 to use instead.
    I set 2202's on fire using them as mid bass drivers. My JBL rep at the time in Buffalo said that using them above 100 hz. didn't allow them to pump enough air through the gap and voice coil to cool them properly....just my 2 cents....

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    Senior Member Fred Sanford's Avatar
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    A friend & I used them as mids in a large active-x-over 3-way PA system for years without issues (see pic). Also used them in passive 2-way monitors, and (as mentioned) they're efficient but lean on the bass (which works for vocal monitors).

    je
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    Senior Member Eaulive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Rinkerman View Post
    I set 2202's on fire using them as mid bass drivers. My JBL rep at the time in Buffalo said that using them above 100 hz. didn't allow them to pump enough air through the gap and voice coil to cool them properly....just my 2 cents....
    Makes sense...

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    not really plausible

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Rinkerman View Post
    I set 2202's on fire using them as mid bass drivers. My JBL rep at the time in Buffalo said that using them above 100 hz. didn't allow them to pump enough air through the gap and voice coil to cool them properly....just my 2 cents....
    The 2202 is recommended as a midrange driver, and in a properly designed ported cabinet or in a horn it will make only small excursions.

    It is rated just 50 Watts RMS, that might be the reason. Also the back chamber may have functioned as a thermal barrier.

    How big was the back chamber, and how efficient was the low bass?

    Ruediger

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