Array 1400 with Mcintosh MC275 MKV and 501s

[Mctwins]

Hi
It is the room, or bad room acoustics.

[timc]

No, not forgetting.
What you're trying to avoid is line of site straight down the throat.
That's where female vocals are the most active.

In that case, horizontal and vertical tilt would do exactly the same (given same dispersion pattern within the 5 degrees)

Personally i prefer to listen sligthly off-axis. However that is not limited to horn loaded loudspeakers.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree to be honest. I don't believe it is the tilt in itself that makes the sound better in you situation, but rather the sligth change in room interaction.

[Woofer]

No trees here......
Of course it's room interaction, but it just doesn't stop there.
OK, imagine this. You're sitting in front of a hard blowing trumpet player.
If it's on axis, your eardrums should start bleeding shortly.
.... but if you move a couple of inches to the side, you'll hear the full tone, including the sound of the resonating brass. Don't argue, I know what I'm talking about.
The tone will be more balanced and pleasing.
(It's a shame that the trumpet player never hears it as it really is, as he's always behind the thing.)

Anyway, get the barking out of your ear, and you end up enjoying the instrument a lot more.
The same with females and horns. Sit in front of one, and it's just like a trumpet when she hits the highs and as horns are very efficient at that very frequency range, 1K to 3K or 4 K, AND all the harmonics in between, and before you know it....., well I don't need to repeat myself.
Re: room interaction, yeh there's that too, didn't say it wasn't, and that's also why you tilt the boxes up to stop and coupling or reflections or whatever, coming right back at you.

[jasonyeo]

Some suggestions based on my experience and initial frustration with the 1400 Array;

1. They need to be raised by about 5 inches off the floor.

2. Get rid of the standard spikes (if you're using them) and make some longer ones, or place blocks of dense timber under the standard spikes to get the speakers up to 5 inches.

3. Tilt the speakers back about 5deg from the horizontal

4. The LE14 needs at least 150 watts of good quality amp, my Krell KSA 150 seems to work well.

5. Horn/Tweeter needs at least 130 watts SS power.

6. Allow at least 300 hours break in - thats what mine have taken anyway. They now sound considerable different than they did at first !


Just my 2 cents worth, but may be helpful to you.

Cheers

'Nutz

I am still using the original spikes . I bought a marble and below the marble with auralex high density foams . Around 2.5 inches raised .

What do you mean by 5deg from horizontal? Is it like putting something on the front 2 spikes so that it tilt a angle ?

[timc]

1: OK, imagine this. You're sitting in front of a hard blowing trumpet player.
If it's on axis, your eardrums should start bleeding shortly.
.... but if you move a couple of inches to the side, you'll hear the full tone, including the sound of the resonating brass. Don't argue, I know what I'm talking about.
The tone will be more balanced and pleasing.
(It's a shame that the trumpet player never hears it as it really is, as he's always behind the thing.)

No argue on this part (have played trumpet for 8 years). But how can you argue wich presentation is correct? It all depends on where the microphone was placed in the recording.

With less sucsessfull horn designs (Klipsch Synergy for example) I agree with you concerning female voices. With the likes of the Array/K2, not at all. I have tried extensively both off-axis and on-axis, and there is no way they sound harsh regardless of tilting. Of course the rooms used for testing did not have any particular problem in the frequency range in question. The horn itself should not really do much different since it is CD, and uses diffraction slot. A trumpet does not have this feature. And in any case there are lots of non-linearities when a trumpet/trombone etc. is played hard, so it not really a valid comparison. You might argue that you have beaming, but that is on higher frequencies.

I maintain my position, that it is a problematic room that causes the problem, and not the speaker itself.

[jasonyeo]

Thanks all bros on your suggestions . I actually found out the problem lies on the floor treatment .

I always use a thick carpet and just concentrating on the walls and ceilings treatment. Tried all possible ways (raised the height of speakers, tilt in more angle) but still cannot help much .

Out of sudden thought why not using diffusor instead of thick carpet on floor . Now by placing 2 diffusors on the floor , in front of the speakers each improve a lot .

Will try to tilt a angle upward to see if can improve further .

But still like to try out tube amps in future if budget permits

[Mctwins]

Jasonyeo......

Put the diffusor on the ceiling.

Don't forgett to use a active crossover.

[Woofer]

@ timc

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've worked with and recorded live bands with huge horn loaded PA's all my life, and always used a clamped (to the bell) mic on any brass instrument, and there's no way to escape it, the brass can sound 'peaky', and it's all coming from the horns, no matter what room you're in.
It's exactly the same with females, except you can't clamp their mic's to their mouths, well you couldn't before, but you almost can now, but they still rattle the diaphragms both in the mic, AND in the horns.
Along comes a 1400 with THAT horn, and you can expect to have problems. You can see it just by looking at it.
eg, you got two hoses, both streaming water. What happens when you cross the streams?
Well it's exactly the same thing, and 'some' (only some mind you) have complained about this very area that the two sound streams are physically meeting. There just has to be an effect.
Some will use a slide rule to work this one out, but it's literally staring you in the face.
Anyway, that's the sort of problem 'nutz was having initially I think, although he couldn't quite put his finger on it, but now after 300 hours or so, things seem to be sorting themselves out.
I think he calls it "burning in", but knowing 'nutz, I think it's more like "burning out".
Heh heh heh, just kiding 'nutz......
Put it down to the suspensions softening up, and filling out the frequencies a bit more without sounding so new!
.... somethin' like that. Anyway, it's late, and I've taken my pills.

[jasonyeo]

Jasonyeo......

Put the diffusor on the ceiling.

Don't forgett to use a active crossover.

Am using diffusors and foams on ceiling now . Diffusors covered 3/4 area and foams is 1/4 on the front ceiling.

Still not sure if I want to go for active crossover

[jasonyeo]

I also have a Denon AVP A1UD pre/pro . Think can use this as external crossover , right
But still dislike the idea of having 2 volumn controls , 1 on Mcintosh c220 pre and 1 on Denon .

Moreover , need to bypass the speaker crossover and connect directly to the woofer and horn

[timc]

@ timc

1: the brass can sound 'peaky', and it's all coming from the horns, no matter what room you're in.


2: It's exactly the same with females, except you can't clamp their mic's to their mouths, well you couldn't before, but you almost can now, but they still rattle the diaphragms both in the mic, AND in the horns.

3: eg, you got two hoses, both streaming water. What happens when you cross the streams?
Well it's exactly the same thing

1: On this we quite agree. But it is the instrument that does it. The sound you are hearing is a combination of the acoustic wave comming out of the hornt, AND the waves generated by the vibration in the instrument mouth. The last part is not present in a loudspeaker (unless it is very poorly designed)

3: This part i just don't get. Why should a female voice "push" the diaphragm any harder than a random source of equal magnitude and frequency?

3: It is not the same. What happens in the CD diffraction slot is edge diffraction. You don't have this when the stream from two hoses "crash". A better analogy when it comes to water hoses, would be that tiny amount of water that is reversed and goes back at you at the end of the hose. Giving a gentle spray on your hand.

You are mixing two part of physics here. Having water molecules crashing into eachother in a steady stream, and then bouncing off one another is not the same as when you have acoustic wave interference. The acoustic wave is not a stream of molecules comming towards you. They are vibrating back and fort, hovering around a zero-point. This is not 100% true, but very close. This is the reason you have a clear distinction beetween fluid mechanics and underwater acoustics.

[timc]

Moreover , need to bypass the speaker crossover and connect directly to the woofer and horn

No!

There is a guide on active use of the 1400 in the tech library. Look a it.

[Mctwins]

Jasonyeo.....

Now I don't understand what you are trying to do here. Don't mess up the speakers by bypassing the passive crossover. Just take it easy here.

I had JBL SVA1800 one time ago and when I tried to bi-amping these speakers it didn't sounded good without any active crossover, it sounded better when I was running them in fullrange or in this case, bi-wire, (one amplifier).

You have to use a real active crossover like DBX PA+ or the like. Forgett about the rest.

If you want to bi-amp and not using any active x-over then you have the wrong speakers.

When it comes to bi-amp, wheather you have passive or not in the speakers or running SS low and high or tube on High and SS on low, allways use active x-over. It is better for the amps and the speakers.
Thanks

[jasonyeo]

No!

There is a guide on active use of the 1400 in the tech library. Look a it.

Is this the link http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...del-1400-Array

[jasonyeo]

Jasonyeo.....

Now I don't understand what you are trying to do here. Don't mess up the speakers by bypassing the passive crossover. Just take it easy here.

I had JBL SVA1800 one time ago and when I tried to bi-amping these speakers it didn't sounded good without any active crossover, it sounded better when I was running them in fullrange or in this case, bi-wire, (one amplifier).

You have to use a real active crossover like DBX PA+ or the like. Forgett about the rest.

If you want to bi-amp and not using any active x-over then you have the wrong speakers.

When it comes to bi-amp, wheather you have passive or not in the speakers or running SS low and high or tube on High and SS on low, allways use active x-over. It is better for the amps and the speakers.
Thanks

Thanks . Need to study the Array 1400 bi amp tech library. Hope I can understand