Tale of two Vertecs @ Woodstock

[robertbartsch]

We went to see Yes and Peter Frampton at a 10,000 seat outdoor theater in Bethel NY - formerly known as Woodstock. The flown system had 10 Vertecs per side and stage mounted subs. The 8 sub cabs looked like 18s x 2

We sat near the sound engineers and there were two control boards. One board was for Frampton and the other board was for Yes and each act had a different sound engineer but, other than that, the SR system was identicle.

Anyway, Frampton's sound was very clean, had great dynamics with great clear vocals. The Yes sound was overbearing, too much bass and the vocals could not be heard or understood. One obvious issue was that the system was being driven beyond its capabilities for Yes.

So what can we conclude from this?

* Sound engineers are very important for a good experience
* Even outdoor stages (covered seating but no walls) can produce crudy results
* Vertecs are very capable if run correctly
* Boards can make a difference?

[robertbartsch]

...one other thing.

Frampton said all his equipment was lost in the Tenn flood two weeks prior - so his crew was working with all new stuff. I'm not sure what that meant but maybe the board they were working with was a new digital board????

Anyway, the Frampton sound was far superior to the YES sound. In the picture above, the YES board was less than half the size of the Frampton board.

[boputnam]

In the picture above, the YES board was less than half the size of the Frampton board.

The larger format analogue console is the Midas XL4 - granddaddy of warmth, and monster weight! They do sound great.

The YES console, looks like a DigiDesign Venue - a great sounding, very versatile desk.

Certainly engineers do make a difference, even on the same system. Since there were two of each, it is hard/impossible to make meaningful comment. I can say that at festivals (and even at venues) I often get lauds for our mix - "best of the weekend" / "best I've heard this venue sound", sort of things, so different engineers can certainly get very different results even using the same system. For me, part of that is lower SPL (that is appreciated by most) as things are less bad sounding when driven less hard.

However, I am not sure the hang is Vertec? I've never seen one with a scrim on the front. But, I cannot a good close-up view...

[clmrt]

Not enough subs. I'll be gigging Peter in a few weeks, we'll see what Martin Audio sounds like.

[Maron Horonzakz]

Sometimes after the engineer sets the levels,,you need to shoot the engineer,,,to keep him from fucking up the performance.

[boputnam]

Sometimes after the engineer sets the levels,,you need to shoot the engineer,,,to keep him from fucking up the performance.

Ah, I'll for sure keep my head down!

[robertbartsch]

The engineer was setting near us and I can't understand his actions since others in the audience said the same thing; YES system was overdriven and too loud, bass was overbearing, vocals were very bad; Frampton sound was much better.

[Oldmics]

Sometimes after the engineer sets the levels,,you need to shoot the engineer,,,to keep him from fucking up the performance.

I recommend a "stunt double".

Hell all of us sound men look alike anyways-Ponytail (usually greying),confused look on face,miracle ear(s)


Oldmics

[boputnam]

...miracle ear(s)

+1

Hey, Oldmics... What you think them flown cabs are? I'm not sure. They don't look JBL to me.

Got an XL4 in your back pocket!!??? Hoping the festival season's keeping your life scrambled...

[Tim Rinkerman]

The flying cabinets are L-Acoustic V-dosc line arrays..I can't think of the name of the audio vendor for that venue..it used to be Audio 300, but that's who provided the stacks and racks.
My company, North American Theatrix provided all the in house A/V systems during construction of Bethel Woods, the venue you were at. I built and flew the lawn coverage system. There's an EAW 750 and 755 in each of the 10 weatherproof enclosures, all powered by QSC. We also provided A/V for the small theatre in the Woodstock museum.
It's ALWAYS the sound guy's fault...I've heard a million mixes in my 40+ years in the business. I've heard garbage systems sound like a well produced record, and I've heard state of the art systems sound like they were blown up....I can't really think of any time I couldn't credit or fault anything but the guy behind the board.....I've spent enough time behind a board to argue this one into the dirt..

[Triumph Don]

Both will be playing this Sunday about 2 miles from my home. Big Yes fan back in the day, Frampton not. Funny thing though, Peter F has a home in Cincinnati [a real nice one] next door to one of my son's runni'n buddies. Got all the passes, should be fun.

[boputnam]

The flying cabinets are L-Acoustic V-dosc line arrays...

Tim, I thought that first - V-DOSC with dV-DOSC beneath for near-fills. But, I couldn't get a good image showing the rollerboard mounts on each side of the V-DOSC, and none seem to have the tell-tale logo imbed into the foam scrim. Thanks for clearing it up. That is my favorite line-array - great sounding at both lo and hi SPL, and in all genre's. Something I cannot say about competing products...


Anyway, if that's the case, even with a Venue console (as contrasted to the XL4 ), they should have sounded perfect.

[Tim Rinkerman]

I'll share a personal observation with you all....I found it to be true because I found myself doing it. When you spend enough time mixing loud acts, or try to make quiet acts loud, you tend to set your ears in a "defensive" mode....you kind of get ready for the next loud thing coming at you...kind of like wincing when yo know something big is going to happen in front of you...like waiting for a fire cracker to go off. It really affects the response curve of your ear, it seem your ear canal tightens up a bit, the bass is all wrong. Anyway, when you mix the same act over and over, you tend to forget about it, and be on your way. The end result is the audience is relaxed waiting for the show to start, and the FOH guy already has his aural defenses in place. Take a look at the next sound guy at a concert that sounds bad. Is he sitting there attentive and relaxed, or do his facial expressions make you think he's dodging bullets?
I found the same to be true in a slightly different respect with performers and loud monitors. After an extended length of hearing the same thing night after night, a performer becomes deaf to his own voice or instrument...kind of like repeating the same word many times in a row...it doesn't sound like the same word anymore. It's not that it isn't loud enough, they just aren't hearing it anymore.

[mikebake]

I think you are onto something there.

[JBL 4645]

I assume this is that same connect (Peter Frampton, 2010, Bethel Woods)



Too bad the audio is low distortion quality on cheep camera phone with (mono sound) frequency response from 160Hz to 8KHz the JBL PA sound system just overloads the audio from what looks like 25 meters away?