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Thread: L250 -> 250Ti Upgrade and Differences

  1. #16
    Obsolete
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    Re: Parts are here, close but....

    If you need the 044Ti-1 as used in the original 250Ti send me a PM. The 044Ti as used in the 18Ti, 120Ti, and 240Ti will also work if you drill out the mounting bolt holes. The 044Ti-1 is still currently available brand new, the 044Ti is no longer available.

  2. #17
    Super Moderator jblnut's Avatar
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    The Results....

    I finally got a few hours free on Saturday so I dove in. I swapped in the new crossover and the 104H-2 (the 035Ti wouldn't fit as we discussed earlier). The result ? Welll...

    1) The bass was noticeably impoved. Now it might have been because I was unable to completely seal the area around the new crossover (smaller than the original). Long term I could make some wooden pieces to seal perfectly but I don't think I'm going that route because...

    2) The 104H-2 *completely* overpowered the other drivers. The deliacte balance that makes the L250 such a joy to listen to (Even for long periods of time) was shattered. Now maybe the correct 104H for the 250TI would cure this, but I'm going to quit while I still have the ability to go back.

    I realized that I really love the sound of the stock L250. It's not a "wow* kind of sound like my XPL's that dazzles you. It's more a relaxed competence that you come to enjoy more and more as you get to know the speakers (and your music collection). There are simply no "holes" in the response - nothing is missing and nothing is exaggerated.


    Unless someone can make a compelling argument that I should spend another $500 on 044TI's and 104H's, I'm going to consider this experiment done and live a long a happy life with my L250's.

    At least until the next pair of 250Ti's or XPL200's show up on ebay :-).

    Thanks VERY MUCH to all that reponded (especially Giskard). Your knowledge of these products is invaluable to someone like me.
    I love the JBL sound and have many pairs in the house, but I lack the technical knowledge and parts bin experience that many of you have.

    jblnut

  3. #18
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    Re: The Results....

    "Unless someone can make a compelling argument that I should spend another $500 on 044TI's and 104H's"

    Not really without getting the original N250Ti networks as well.

    "I'm going to consider this experiment done and live a long and happy life with my L250's."

    Can't say I blame you

  4. #19
    Ezel
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    Re: The Results....

    Being an owner of a pair of 250TI's I believe your experiment was very helpful at least for me as I am also looking a way to upgrade my 250TI's. Now with your results I guess I should stop my intentions of upgrade...

    "At least until the next pair of 250Ti's or XPL200's show up on ebay :-)."

    At that point I recommend you to follow up the German E-bay where you can find 250TI's.. (almost every week..)

    Good luck

  5. #20
    Super Moderator jblnut's Avatar
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    Upgrading 250Ti's ?

    Wow - I guess there's always some way to upgrade what you have, but where would you go from the 250ti ? I'm not sure what you could do to improve a 250Ti beyond the already high level of performance it's capable of. Even my humble experiment showed me that different isn't always better - somtimes it's just different.

    You'll get a lot of opinions on what would be "better" than a 250TI (electrostatic panels, B&W, JBL 4XXX monitors, etc), but if you're happy with them, I say leave well enough alone.

    Have you looked at your electronics ? Is there anything you could do there ?

    Thanks for the tip on the German ebay. There does seem to be a regular supply of 250Ti's there for quite reasonable prices. But how would you get them crated and shipped to the States, and what would that cost ???


    jblnut

  6. #21
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    Re: Upgrading 250Ti's ?

    "Wow - I guess there's always some way to upgrade what you have, but where would you go from the 250ti ? I'm not sure what you could do to improve a 250Ti beyond the already high level of performance it's capable of."

    I dunno, maybe charge coupling the networks?

  7. #22
    Ezel
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    Re: Upgrading 250Ti's ?

    Well.. .))

    Curiosity was the driving force behind the human advance in the history.. I guess the reason behind to seek an upgrade for my 250TI was my curiosity.

    I was checking whether it would be possible to have a new biwirable Network (The network of 250TI Jubilee N250 TIBQ) fitted on an 250TI. After discussing that issue with some people I decided that It will not worth it so I have cancelled that project.

    "Have you looked at your electronics ? Is there anything you could do there ? "

    I have a pair of Audio Reserach Vt 150 SE monoblock power amps with a Audio Reserach LS2B MKII preamp. All the cables are Van den Hul (SCS-2 for speakers MC Gold and integration for interconnects). The source is a Sony XA7ES. So far it is very good. I am happy with them but this do not prevent me to experiment further for a better sound.. Again.. Curiosity kills the cat!!

    "Thanks for the tip on the German ebay. There does seem to be a regular supply of 250Ti's there for quite reasonable prices. But how would you get them crated and shipped to the States, and what would that cost ???"

    I have purchased my speakers from Germany. The seller shipped the huge speakers internationally on their own packaging.. They have arrived scratch free. maby I was lucky.. But It really worthed to take the risk..

    It looks difficult but Germans are in general very reliable and trustable people. The problem is to convince and persuade them to sell the speaker to you.. Once you have a deal with someone you could be sure that he will deliver it. At least that was my experience. I have purchased many items from German E-bay and never failed. But to be on the safe side I recommend you to discuss every details.. On the other hand I guess this should be a principle to apply on all internet trades.. isn't it?

    By the way there is now one pair of 250TI jubilee on auction with very very low price (EUR 700.- ??)

  8. #23
    Ezel
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    Re: Re: Upgrading 250Ti's ?

    Originally posted by Giskard
    "Wow - I guess there's always some way to upgrade what you have, but where would you go from the 250ti ? I'm not sure what you could do to improve a 250Ti beyond the already high level of performance it's capable of."

    I dunno, maybe charge coupling the networks?
    That sounds interesting..

    What is the meaning of " charge coupling" and how can we do that?

    I really wonder if it will worth such an upgrade? what will be the expected sonic change?

  9. #24
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    Re: Upgrading 250Ti's ?

    Hello Ezel

    You can search this forum for charge coupling or biasing. Several members have posted links worth pursuing. I asked the designer what he thought about biasing L250's or 250Ti's and he said the difference is staggering. He also said it was a ton of work and a real mess. You might want to just rebuild the networks from scratch. He pointed out that he finally got to "officially" bias a pair for production, the fifth and final version, the 250Ti Jubilee. I have no problem with posting a new charge coupled version of the original 250Ti schematic if there is enough interest.

    *****************************************

    http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/l250.htm
    Last edited by 4313B; 06-19-2003 at 09:44 AM.

  10. #25
    Ezel
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    Re: Re: Upgrading 250Ti's ?

    Originally posted by Giskard
    I have no problem with posting a new charge coupled version of the original 250Ti schematic if there is enough interest.

    Wow.... Staggering.. Eh??

    That sounds interesting. I would love to have a copy of that schematic. In case there won't be any interest please feel free send me a copy with a PM. I think it worths to experiment..

  11. #26
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    Re: Upgrading 250Ti's ?

    Hey, he designed them. If he says an original 250Ti with a biased network sounds staggering compared to stock then I believe him.

    I'll draw the biased N250Ti schematic up in a few days.

  12. #27
    Senior Member Don C's Avatar
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    How about swapping out the midranges for a pair of 093ti? i have been thinking of trying this.
    Don C

  13. #28
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    One thing I've learned about G.T. after 25 years. He doesn't advocate swapping this and that too often. He is very specific with his networks and drivers. Quite a bit of design is empirical which is why trying to use math and formulas often doesn't work.

    "How about swapping out the midranges for a pair of 093ti?"

    Standard answer - "Won't work."

    Feel free to give it a try though

  14. #29
    Senior Member DavidF's Avatar
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    Following on the idea of changing the upper-mid driver to the 093Ti and Giskard's note related to his interaction with G.T. as a system designer. I agree that the 3-inch dome replacing the cone upper-mid makes practical sense. So much so I was entertaining the idea myself (though not into the L250 system). When does an upgrade become a redesign? I can claim to be no more than an enthusiast armed with a little experience with crossover filter design. Looking back into the history on this website, much of the enthusiasts experience with JBL and Altec in growth years of HiFi involved mixing and matching components with stock crossovers designs. Perhaps due to the similar "family" characteristics of the limited number of drivers, and the level of knowledge involving crossover design, this component matching scheme produced acceptable results when combined in a two- or three-way system. Certainly by the time the L250 was in design stages, the knowledge of filter design had increased significantly. JBL had more and more drivers produced solely for the consumer market and their passive crossover designs were now very much system/model-specific. The L250 filter design is, no doubt, a time-intensive design tuned to the specific drivers used in the system. As Giskard mentions, formulas and theories take you to a point where only listening and trial-an-error will exact the ultimate level of performance.

    My point? When we move to swap out drivers in a proven and comprehensive design such as the L250 et al, we are more likely to upset the balance of the design and end up with a downgrade rather than an upgrade unless we are willing to modify the crossover design, as well. At this point we are no longer upgrading the system but are embarking on an actual redesign.

  15. #30
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    Thanks for the post David!
    Well stated

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