And likewise there many business people who are quite adept at making money yet really have no "Business" trying to associate their work with craftsmanship. To them going the extra mile to produce something truly excellent is as foreign as a fine craftsperson cutting corners to make an extra dollar...Originally Posted by rdgrimes
eso
I am afraid fine craftsmanship has become a rather alien concept to most Americans... appreciating the value of fine craftsmanship and taking pride in one's own craft are the exception rather than the rule these days... It certainly isn't gone, but it is disappointingly rare.
To be fair to the posters complaining about craftspeople who are shortsighted... I have met them too, but the rare individual who is a fine craftsman will take delight in working for someone who knows and appreciates the difference between ordinary and the extraordinary. They won't blow you off.
Widget
I have to share Mr. Widget's observations related to cabinet making in today's market.
Simply driving up to a business who has Cabinet Making as part of their name will usually result in dissappointment for those seeking anything in the custom category. In today's cabinet shops their is likely only one true cabinet maker - the owner - if he's old enough to have grown up in a near dead trade.
In today's economy cabinet shops only survive by mass producing cabinets for kitchen installations and the like. Most of today's shops use little to no hardwoods with composite look alike materials dominating. They're slamming them together with nail and staple guns, using assembly fixtures, and presses. Seldom will you ever see a screw. The majority of their employees are simple labor with a few long timers responsible for the millwork necessary to make all the parts. I've been in many of these shops over the years and this is what the industry has become. Today's furniture factories (the few that still exist) have degraded to the same routine. Cost of labor !!!!!
I'm surprised that anyone could even get a quote for a custom application pair of speaker cabs in today's market, since most shops do not even employ a person capable of creating such a cabinet from scratch. For those shops that do, you must realize that that person will be taken out of the normal work force for a couple of weeks, while he hand cuts every piece and hand assembles and finishes the end product. In dollars/hour you have to ask what his time is worth to the business owner? Likely more than the project is worth is my guess.
I've built so many cabinets over the years that I take the process for granted but every pair is a reminder of the man-hours required - and I have assembled a hugh pile of jigs and templates to streamline my efforts. Building the raw cabinets is only half of the battle. Installing the veneer, finishing and building grilles is an equal task. Nobody, not even home based hobbiests, wants their work going out the door for $5 to $10/hour for their labor time and this is what would need to happen to get everyone the cabinets of their dreams.
As stated earlier in this thread, a pair of Model 19's can be purchased outright for far less than than the option of buying components and having custom cabinets built. I've owned 19's before but have not actually built those cabinets, however I can envision their construction time to be similar to many of the bigger 43XX models. When I sold my 19's about 5 years ago (Stone Mint Original's in Walnut/Black) I struggled to get $1500 for them. I'm sure if one is patient a similar pair will come along and result in a significant net savings when compared to the DIY option.
Just my 3 cents worth - Rick
I can't see paying $2K - $3.5K for new cabs.
Can someone explain the simple economics to me?
1. Why are the JBL/Altec components of a large 15" system being sold on FleaBay, for example, for amounts that are often equal to or exceeding the price of a whole system that includes the cabs? This is even true for 12" systems that can be shipped fairly easily.
2. I realize shipping a large 90.lb box from coast-to-coast can be prohibitively expensive but only if you have existing cabs or plan to make them yourself; right?
3. If building new cabs from a shop is so expensive, why are these "box-less" components selling so well? Are most people building their own cabs or is "gramps" donating the cab labor?
as always - thanks for your thoughts...
Then don't. That reduces the economics about as simply as is possible.I can't see paying $2K - $3.5K for new cabs.
Is it a problem to just wait for a local sale of a system you're after?
....No problem for me to wait for a sale with cabs on the east coast ...just a tad frustrated knowing my multiple cab building venture worked well in the past, was reasobably priced, was good quality- but is now Bye-bye!
A couple of other thoughts:
- When I learned wood working in school 40 years ago, the school shop teacher and sometimes kids would look for projects that the kids could do for their learning skills.
Is this something that has long since been eliminated?Thx all!
- What about trying to find a retired cab maker - I don't expect him to work for peanuts but maybe $15-$20 an hour might produce cabs for under $1,200 or so???
- I suppose I could buy a table saw and veneer a pair of new cabs for under $800 or so but this is really more than I want to do right now.
For the surprise of your life visit this LinK , 1st the home page:
< michaelchrist.com > and then contact Mr. Michael Christ at Email:
< [email protected] >
After you have seen Michael Christ's Shop in the Web site gallery, then see the image of Michael's exquisite reproduction of the WECO TA-7395 horn for WECO 18 inch field coil horn driver. In the next image is a picture of Michael's RCA Photophone 1950's Cinema Scope Theater PL-301-A Ubangi horn system with the RCA MI-9462 Ubangi low frequency horns in Michael's home. Michael will be very pleased to fabricate exquisite veneered woods cabinets for you.
cheers herki the cat
I like the school idea... although most high-schools around here wouldn't know
what wood shop was if you asked, you might talk to the staff of community college
that has such facilities.
I certainly benefited from such an arrangement when I took auto machine
shop classes and was able to work on 'brought in' flat head ford engines,
Olds race motors (for marine use), etc... in addition to my own projects.
You would have to front the materials, probably a small fee, and get no
real guarantee, but you'd be doing several folks a favor with a high likelihood
of the shop instructor not letting the student fail. My work was held to a
high standard... if a student got into trouble, the shop instructor could
direct a repair or take over briefly (normally the former).
What economics? I don't think there's a single answer to your question. Individual components have always sold well on eBay. I've been buying them for over 10 years. Motive for buying is the question.
If I had to guess I would say the majority are being bought by DIY'ers who are building their own boxes. So called professionally built boxes are not a high priority to everyone. Some will wrap them in laminated plastic and put them in their mobile home living room and be perfectly satisifed.
Some DIY'ers are motivated to build simply to create something themselves and total end price is not the up front issue. Others are doing it because what they seek is not being offered whole, at any price, and building is their only option. Then there are the majority who decide to build because they believe the end cost will be considerably lower. This group I believe to be in the majority and most find out after the fact that they could have bought whole originals for less money.
How many eBay ads have you seeen that read "bought these items for a DIY project thar never materialized so now my loss is your gain". I see this quite often. I wonder how many times a given set of components has changed hands over the course of 5 years or so. A better question is "How many AC Corba Kit Cars" are sitting unfinished in garages around the country.
I'm fortunate that I can blend the components and wood into a finished product but many find it to be more than they bargained for. If there was a pair of Hartsfields on the market for every set of plans sold on the internet, the Hartsfield would be worth a fraction of the current asking price.
I'm not trying to defend the validity of the quotes you have received but I personally feel that you'll get only cobbled together junk for less than that amount - and if you're not careful you might get less. If you proceed be absolutely sure the company knows what the end product must look like. Supply tons of detailed pics and precise building plans as a minimum. Does any one know if factory Model 19 plans exist out there?
Rick
Thanks Grumpy. I've bookmarked that site. I'm not a real big Altec fan these days but if I had to choose one it would be the Model 19. If I could keep everything I would not have sold my last pair. It's for sure one of the best 70's vintage 2-ways and I appreciate Robert's desire to bring em home.
Try searching for a woodworkers club in your area. I would think that would be a good source finding a contact for a semi-retired craftsman or, perhaps, a young one that hasn't given up yet.
Good luck!
I think I'd like to take on your project for you. I started out building custom cabinets 30+ years ago - always enjoyed it and would be a nice project to do.
Plus I have contacts for very reasonable freight/shipping, know how to package/palletize cabinets, am located mid westerly AND of course...
Ta Dah....can furnish grilles (foam of course).
Materials are reasonable around here so I think I can give you the price you want - just will need to know EXACTLY what you want (ergo 19s or Valencias and how finished).
You can PM me with details.
Frankly, I'd love to go back into cabinet making - IF you want some real high end cabs, I've got contacts with several Amish shops that produce beautiful furniture...but it costs.
How good is that ? Well done you sir for stepping up to the plate, thats what its all about.
Interesting reading for sure.
Back in 1979 I built a group of (4) 4530 cabinets after buying one from JBL and making a jig - 2 for myself and hopefully 2 that I could sell to recoup my small investment in a radial arm saw and router. Took them to a music store and they sold before I made it back home.
The next batch of 8 lasted 2 days. I guess I hit a niche. The vast majority were painted black and thrown around uhauls and repainted / resold many times and I still see them in stores and in retired soundman garages...but a few were made of oak veneer plywood with solid oak trim and found their way into homes and "nice" clubs.
In the next 2 decades I built a large shop, made all kinds of cabinets for clubs, bands, sound companies, Install contractors (unique church boxes with special finishes) and furniture for my self and family.
Fast forward to the present and I find myself yet again relocating the ( dormant for 8 years ) wood shop to the LAST place it will reside and once again will be building cabinets and refinishing all the 43XX monitors I have accumulated over the years.
The biggest issue I have with building for the DIY'er is that the original materials and technique of assembly for the big format monitors left a lot to be desired. Particle board is just plain junk to work with, store, reinforce and so on. Get it even close to damp and it swells up. Hit it and it fractures. Won't hold a screw for crap.
So when I used to tell clients that I would make it out of shop or finnish birch ( or russian / appleply - love that stuff from anderson in anaheim BTW ) multiply plywood I get the "attitude" that it's not original and the "aura" might be impeded.
Nevermind that the client uses ceramic insulators to separate his 28ga speaker wires ( that run exactly North-south ), 2000 dollar interconnects that have direction arrows and those "magic" 6" cones pulled from drive-in hanging metal boxes because they are "warm"...and I won't even get into the tube amp damping game....
...sigh...
Anyways, enough ranting. By this fall I hope to have the shop completed enough to start producing the large 4 ways and related sub cabs for sale here on the forum. And the model 19 plans look pretty straightforward compared to a large folded horn.
And yes saeman - it took a whole vanload to transport *just* the jigs and templates and I still have to sort them out...
And robertbartsch - I am about 2 hours from you...
So what cabinet types are in demand these days???
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