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Thread: Bi-Amp 4430 Results

  1. #1
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    Bi-Amp 4430 Results

    Well I gave it a whirl, and it just didn't float my boat. Seem to lose a lot of detail and imaging. I used the 5235.

    Rich

  2. #2
    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    You might try swapping the polarity on only one of the amps HF -or- LF
    (both speaker leads +/-) before giving up on this. I seem to recall this
    having an effect with mine, using the 4430/4435 cards in a 5235. It was
    a long time back (for me to remember clearly), but simple enough to try.

    I -do- clearly recall that setting the levels on the 5235 was very critical,
    and that the normal/bi-amp switch was a bit fussy (could use a bit of
    cleaning and lubrication... or outright replacement).

  3. #3
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichK View Post
    Well I gave it a whirl, and it just didn't float my boat. Seem to lose a lot of detail and imaging. I used the 5235.
    Perhaps a better crossover would help, but as I have said before... to get a "real" improvement from a multi-amped system... you have to do a lot of things right.


    Widget

  4. #4
    Senior Member timc's Avatar
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    Which amps did you use? Where they similar? thinking of sensitivity and gain.

    A difference of only >0.5dB will make everything go bad.
    2213 + 2435HPL w/aquaplas + H9800 (Matsj edition)

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    Unabashed Speakerholic cosmos's Avatar
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    Personally, I have never heard a passive system not be surpassed by a active one. I'd suspect something was wrong in your setup.

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    I used a couple of Marantz 250M's.

    I didn't play with the settings much at all because I don't know how to attack that. Is there a way to go thru a set up. All I seemed to hear was the speaker getting more power.

    Rich

  7. #7
    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    Do you have the 5235 manual? Also it is not trivial to do by ear (without
    test equipment). I assume you have the proper 5235 cards for this system
    and that you've noticed that the output connector pin-out of the 5235 is
    non-standard.

    I'm in no way challenging that you may very well have a preference for the
    non-biamped system, or that higher quality electronic crossovers could
    further improve the sound of a properly biamped 4430, ... it was just not
    my experience that biamping 4430's with a 5235 resulted in drastically
    less enjoyable speakers (it was just a hassle turning all of that junk on
    and off).

    (I should also mention that I was feeding the 5235 input from a balanced-out
    preamp).

  8. #8
    Senior Member Krunchy's Avatar
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    Something may need to be tweaked, the sound should definitely improve if you are biamp-ing, by how much?
    thats more objective.
    Crossover will play a major role in what you hear.
    Keep on working!

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
    (it was just a hassle turning all of that junk on and off).
    Just Play Music.

  9. #9
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krunchy View Post
    S...the sound should definitely improve if you are biamp-ing, by how much?
    thats more objective.
    I don't agree with that blanket statment.

    About the only blanket statement I can think of at the moment that would be true, is "the system will be quietest with the power disconnected."

    How about this: "The system should improve if you are bi-amping it correctly."


    Widget

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
    Do you have the 5235 manual? Also it is not trivial to do by ear (without
    test equipment). I assume you have the proper 5235 cards for this system
    and that you've noticed that the output connector pin-out of the 5235 is
    non-standard.

    I'm in no way challenging that you may very well have a preference for the
    non-biamped system, or that higher quality electronic crossovers could
    further improve the sound of a properly biamped 4430, ... it was just not
    my experience that biamping 4430's with a 5235 resulted in drastically
    less enjoyable speakers (it was just a hassle turning all of that junk on
    and off).

    (I should also mention that I was feeding the 5235 input from a balanced-out
    preamp).

    I do have the manual, but it's pretty simple. I do have one of those cheap Radio Shack SPL meters. But as far as having a pole, microphone, and a nice HP/Agilent Spectrum Analyzer....I'm out.

    I wonder if my crossovers are tired.

    Rich

  11. #11
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichK View Post
    I do have the manual, but it's pretty simple. I do have one of those cheap Radio Shack SPL meters. But as far as having a pole, microphone, and a nice HP/Agilent Spectrum Analyzer....I'm out.

    I wonder if my crossovers are tired.
    If you place the SPL meter on a stool or rig some sort of repeatable stand, set it up 4 feet away from the speaker on axis with the horn, play pink noise through the system (one channel at a time) and set it so that it is say 75dB with only the horn playing, then disconnect that amp and run the woofers and dial it in until you get the same reading... repeat on the other channel and you should be really pretty close.


    Widget

  12. #12
    Senior Member Krunchy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    I don't agree with that blanket statment.

    About the only blanket statement I can think of at the moment that would be true, is "the system will be quietest with the power disconnected."

    How about this: "The system should improve if you are bi-amping it correctly." Widget
    Yes, thats more to the point, the key word there being correctly. From my own experience I definitely noticed a much "livelier" sound when I bi-amped them, by how much did it improve is hard to hard for me to put into words, but it was certainly noticeable. If I had the extra gear I would have keept the bi-amp configuration but they are now in passive mode and sound fine to me and I'm happy with them.

    RichK keep working on it and try out Mr. Widgets advice with the pink noise spl meter since you have it. Let us know how you make out.
    Just Play Music.

  13. #13
    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    If you place the SPL meter on a stool...
    ... you now have a pair of stools.

    Seriously, I'd have to choose a curve for the specific-brand SPL meter and run
    a comparison test vs. a swept sine plot before I'd step out on that limb.

    IIRC, the unity gain setting on the 5235 was "8" and was difficult to set
    within a 1/2dB... something I'd rather not depend on a pink noise source
    to accomplish... but better than nothing I suppose.

    A $50 mic (or the SPL
    meter voltage output) and some free software would likely produce both a
    better answer if done correctly, and initiate a barrage of problems and
    questions in the process of getting there ... so, ah, nevermind, an RS SPL
    meter -is- a handy tool to have, and is a smidgen better than just guessing.

  14. #14
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy View Post

    Seriously, I'd have to choose a curve for the specific-brand SPL meter and run
    a comparison test vs. a swept sine plot before I'd step out on that limb.
    I've actually done it with a Rat Shack meter... it does work.

    In the mid band, where most of the energy is in a test like this, they are remarkably accurate. At 1KHz, my Rat Shack meter is within 1dB of my calibrated CLIO rig.

    Now, I personally wouldn't use a Rat Shack SPL meter to set an EQ, but many have while using a chart to "calibrate" their meter.


    Widget

  15. #15
    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    Good to go then

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