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Thread: Geez, who the hell needs TAD

  1. #1
    Member djnagle's Avatar
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    Geez, who the hell needs TAD

    Hi All, I spend the day listening to several different horns using the TAD 4001 and JBL 2445 with the TrueXtent Beryllium diaphragms. WOW is all I can say. We got the TrueXtents from Black Swamp Audio and in every instance I thought the 2445s with the Beryllium diaphragm sounded better. Not by very much mind you: and I am JBL biased, but for the price of the diaphragms and the 2445 that is readily available, it is a no brainer which one I am buying.


    Here is a shot of all the horns we brought together at Brad's (Black Swamp Audio) for critical listening. It was me, Dan (Cosmos), Rick (Tubino), and Brad. We had 2 sets of Yuichi horns, Smith horns, 2 pairs of Edgar horns, and Matinelli horns. All but the Martinellis took 2" compression drivers. We had 2 pairs of TAD 4001s and a pair of JBL 2445 with TrueXtent Beryllium diaphragms. My favorite combo was Rick's Yuichi horns with Dan's JBL 2445 drivers. There are not enough words to discribe the sound....if was wonderful.
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  2. #2
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    OK, just to get this straight, you didn't just read the spec's, or measure anything, you just listened?!? What a concept! I wonder if it will catch on?
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djnagle View Post
    Hi All, I spend the day listening to several different horns using the TAD 4001 and JBL 2445 with the TrueXtent Beryllium diaphragms. WOW is all I can say. We got the TrueXtents from Black Swamp Audio and in every instance I thought the 2445s with the Beryllium diaphragm sounded better. Not by very much mind you: and I am JBL biased, but for the price of the diaphragms and the 2445 that is readily available, it is a no brainer which one I am buying.
    I appreciate your comments on potential bias.

    I would think they would sound very similar... the differences being the TADs have slightly more powerful magnets and a different type of Be diaphragm. Is the TrueXtent 4" voice coil made in house? Winding them is a bit of an art form... I'd love to know more.

    As you mention, used 2445s are quite abundant and affordable, and short of physical abuse and damage, a used pair with new diaphragms should be quite fine. How much are they charging for these diaphragms? Are there different impedances offered?


    Widget

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    Senior Member JoMoCo's Avatar
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    They have been advertising them for sale over at Audiogon in the 16ohm version. Supposedly the 8ohmers will be for sale soon. approx $700.ea...

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    Here's the thread from this site:

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ad.php?t=27802

  6. #6
    Unabashed Speakerholic cosmos's Avatar
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    2445 versus.

    Ok here is an interesting question and quite appropriate to this thread. JBL 2445 was not know to be a very refined driver for HIFi use. I think that is a given. They do sound very nice with the TrueXtent Beryllium diaphragms.

    Is there a better body to use these diaphragms in, from a HiFi perspective?

  7. #7
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    My question is where is the audible improvement according to frequency? Is it the upper range of the driver, or the lower end of it's operating range?
    scottyj

  8. #8
    Unabashed Speakerholic cosmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott fitlin View Post
    My question is where is the audible improvement according to frequency? Is it the upper range of the driver, or the lower end of it's operating range?
    Scott,

    That's a good question. They are certainly very extended in HF. Each diaphragm is individually tested on 2445 prior to shipment and a graph is included in the box. I have not run RTA testing on them yet.

    However, I don't perceive the reason to buy them as frequency response though. In my mind, the biggest advantage is their sound. They just sound smooth and detailed.

    Presently, I have them on some large homemade horns that are based on 248Hz Tractrix curve. They sound very open and natural.. Pictured here on top of 4507 cabinets loaded with E145-8 and actively crossed over at 480 Hz (24db Butterworth).

    No the horns are not finished yet. Maybe this weekend I will get some time...
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    Senior Member spkrman57's Avatar
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    Neat horns Dan!

    I wish I had the time to visit and hear them in person.

    Hopefully in a month or two!

    Regards, Ron
    JBL Pro for home use!

  10. #10
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmos View Post
    Ok here is an interesting question and quite appropriate to this thread. JBL 2445 was not know to be a very refined driver for HIFi use. I think that is a given. They do sound very nice with the TrueXtent Beryllium diaphragms.

    Is there a better body to use these diaphragms in, from a HiFi perspective?
    The 2445 is a ferrite version of the classic 2440. The main short coming of the 2445 compared with the 2440/2441 was the sonic character of the diaphragm. Using a new Be diaphragm in both 2445s and 2441s, I doubt you would hear a difference.


    Quote Originally Posted by cosmos View Post
    However, I don't perceive the reason to buy them as frequency response though. In my mind, the biggest advantage is their sound. They just sound smooth and detailed.
    I've been singing that song for years about the TADs. Real Be is a real improvement... and while the proof is in the listening, it is in the physics too. Be, is simply the best material for high frequencies. Period!

    Then again, if you can't afford Be, Mg is second, and AL is not bad either. Ti is great for durability, but it isn't ideal sonically.


    Widget

  11. #11
    Unabashed Speakerholic cosmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Ti is great for durability, but it isn't ideal sonically.
    Interesting you make this comment. Brush Wellman is touting as a selling point that their diaphragms are more durable than Titanium or Vapor Deposition Beryllium because of their process.. Sounds like you can get the best of both worlds? I won't ever put my drivers to test in HiFi use, but for SR..

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    The 2445 is a ferrite version of the classic 2440. The main short coming of the 2445 compared with the 2440/2441 was the sonic character of the diaphragm. Using a new Be diaphragm in both 2445s and 2441s, I doubt you would hear a difference.
    That makes complete sense to me. I tried (on 350Hz Edgar horns) swapping Radian 1245-8 diaphragms with 2441 and 2445 motors and could not perceive a difference. The 2445 with the Aluminum Radian diaphragms sounded smoother than with their stock Ti diaphragms, but they lost HF extension. It was the results of that test that led me to buying Truextent diaphragms. I figured that the body was improvable by simply changing diaphragms and Beryllium should give good HF extension and smooth, musical sound.

    I like it..

  12. #12
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmos View Post
    Scott,

    That's a good question. They are certainly very extended in HF. Each diaphragm is individually tested on 2445 prior to shipment and a graph is included in the box. I have not run RTA testing on them yet.

    However, I don't perceive the reason to buy them as frequency response though. In my mind, the biggest advantage is their sound. They just sound smooth and detailed.

    Presently, I have them on some large homemade horns that are based on 248Hz Tractrix curve. They sound very open and natural.. Pictured here on top of 4507 cabinets loaded with E145-8 and actively crossed over at 480 Hz (24db Butterworth).

    No the horns are not finished yet. Maybe this weekend I will get some time...
    I wasn't asking how they measure. I am asking WHERE do you think you hear improvement?

    I just am curious to what you hear and how you would describe it.,
    scottyj

  13. #13
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmos View Post
    Interesting you make this comment. Brush Wellman is touting as a selling point that their diaphragms are more durable than Titanium or Vapor Deposition Beryllium because of their process.. Sounds like you can get the best of both worlds? I won't ever put my drivers to test in HiFi use, but for SR..


    That makes complete sense to me. I tried (on 350Hz Edgar horns) swapping Radian 1245-8 diaphragms with 2441 and 2445 motors and could not perceive a difference. The 2445 with the Aluminum Radian diaphragms sounded smoother than with their stock Ti diaphragms, but they lost HF extension. It was the results of that test that led me to buying Truextent diaphragms. I figured that the body was improvable by simply changing diaphragms and Beryllium should give good HF extension and smooth, musical sound.

    I like it..
    I agree, the Be, at least in my TAD drivers, output considerably higher frequency, and more of it. But my JBL drivers beat the TAD drivers in their lower operating range. I, also tried radian Al diaphragms in my 2441 drivers, I could hear a difference, but didn't quite like it. Went back to JBL phragms.

    My TAD drivers sit, in their original packing boxes, on a shelf.
    scottyj

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post

    I would think they would sound very similar...

    Widget
    VERY similar indeed. I'm not AS quick to designate the Be 2445 the winner in every combination we listend to as Dennis but I can say without hesitation that they did sound every bit the TAD equal. when you consider cost and the earned reputation the TAD TD-4001's enjoy, that's saying alot.

  15. #15
    Unabashed Speakerholic cosmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott fitlin View Post
    I wasn't asking how they measure. I am asking WHERE do you think you hear improvement?

    I just am curious to what you hear and how you would describe it.,
    Scott, perhaps I wasn't very clear in my response. I guess what I meant to say is that compared to stock Ti diaphragms, Truextents sound like:

    1. They go as high or higher in HF frequency response.
    2. They are smoother sounding throughout the entire coverage.
    3. Instrument details appear clearer and more listen able.
    4. I do not perceive any sibilance like I do in the stock diaphragms.
    5. The midrange seemed richer with more body or fullness. More "Soul"

    Compared to the Radian 1245, the Truextents:

    1. Go significantly higher.
    2. Sound every bit as smooth, but more detailed.

    It is a significant upgrade to either the stock or Radian diaphragm.

    When we compared to TAD TD-4001, the gap was narrow. Interestingly, the TAD sounded better on Edgarhorns, but they weren't the same Edgar horns and there is definitely a difference in the horns themselves. The 2445Be were on the red horns in the picture while the TAD-4001 were on the wood tone ones. However, on the same Yuichi horns, the 2445Be sounded best to me. It was the best combination of the day, in my mind.

    These are my observations and YMMV.

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