Are my tweeters OK?

[Dave Dunbar]

I recently acquired a pair of 4412s from a radio station. I've had the woofer surrounds redone. Everything else seems fine (really fine!) except for a shrillness in high-level voices, especially female voices. Even Steve Hoffman's great Joni Mitchell remasterings overload a bit. I've tried them with a number of decent amps, pre-amps and CD players. The harshness in vocals at high volume changes depending on the characteristics of the gear I'm feeding them, but never completely goes away. I don't notice this harshness in friends' high end systems. This characteristic doesn't seem right for speakers this good, but I suspect an issue with the tweeters. I'm listening at a distance of about 8'in a room 17' x 21', at moderately high, but certainly not super-loud, levels. How does one determine if the tweeters are in good shape or if they need repair/replacement?

[rdgrimes]

Do those have L-pads? The L-pads can cause a variety of similar issues when they are old and dirty. Try spinning them around a few times and see if it makes a difference.

[Progneta]

Usually on lpads I spray the snot out of them with an air compressor to get debris out then use a contact cleaner - lube combo (made for electronics of course) and this really helps that crappiness go away.

[Beowulf57]

Dirty connection contacts can also contribute...clean them all!

[BJL]

Do those tweets (035Ti-something-or-other-?) have a foam under the dome that's turned to goo ?
Just a WAG

[Wagner]

I recently acquired a pair of 4412s from a radio station. I've had the woofer surrounds redone. Everything else seems fine (really fine!) except for a shrillness in high-level voices, especially female voices. Even Steve Hoffman's great Joni Mitchell remasterings overload a bit. I've tried them with a number of decent amps, pre-amps and CD players. The harshness in vocals at high volume changes depending on the characteristics of the gear I'm feeding them, but never completely goes away. I don't notice this harshness in friends' high end systems. This characteristic doesn't seem right for speakers this good, but I suspect an issue with the tweeters. I'm listening at a distance of about 8'in a room 17' x 21', at moderately high, but certainly not super-loud, levels. How does one determine if the tweeters are in good shape or if they need repair/replacement?

They all (the Titanium) sound a bit edgy to me too, for what that's worth.
Seems more pronounced with digital sources as well.
I think a lot of it is the extreme resolution and extension they offer, just not use to hearing so much information.
Most annoying on run of the mill pop and rock, not so much with nicely recorded Jazz.
Turn the pots down into the negative territory, it's what I have to do as I have a very "hard" room.
You'll grow accustomed to it I think as your brain gets used to processing so much. Get to know them at lower listening levels at first.
I have wondered about the damping stuff too though, but I don't want to fool around with them unless I had some appropriate material on hand and I don't know what that would be.

Thomas

[Dave Dunbar]

Thanks to everyone for the responses. Thomas, I appreciate your thoughtful comments. I actually have had the 4412 for two years, so I've done quite a bit of listening to all sorts of music. And I've tried the "low level" test a number of times. I still hear it at lower volume, though it's not as pronounced. I've never fully accepted that everything is as it should be. I'd get someone to look at them, but we don't have a good JBL specialist here in Cincinnati (at least that I've been able to unearth). My serious dissatisfaction of late came when I had a chance to audition a new set of Acoutic Energy speakers, which have a VERY forward characteristic like the JBLs, but with none of the high end harshness/overload I'm hearing on my 4412s. On the other hand, the 4412 have bass and warmth that the AEs just don't. I'd be quite satisfied with the 4412s if I could clear out this high-end overload thing. So I've tried lots of different gear with the 4412s, and have convinced myself that something is amiss. And I do have the 4412s, not the 4412A, so I've go the tweeter that's tougher to rebuild. And it won't be cheap. But I'm seriously considering it, since it's the only way to be sure.

[Wagner]

Thanks to everyone for the responses. Thomas, I appreciate your thoughtful comments. I actually have had the 4412 for two years, so I've done quite a bit of listening to all sorts of music. And I've tried the "low level" test a number of times. I still hear it at lower volume, though it's not as pronounced. I've never fully accepted that everything is as it should be. I'd get someone to look at them, but we don't have a good JBL specialist here in Cincinnati (at least that I've been able to unearth). My serious dissatisfaction of late came when I had a chance to audition a new set of Acoutic Energy speakers, which have a VERY forward characteristic like the JBLs, but with none of the high end harshness/overload I'm hearing on my 4412s. On the other hand, the 4412 have bass and warmth that the AEs just don't. I'd be quite satisfied with the 4412s if I could clear out this high-end overload thing. So I've tried lots of different gear with the 4412s, and have convinced myself that something is amiss. And I do have the 4412s, not the 4412A, so I've go the tweeter that's tougher to rebuild. And it won't be cheap. But I'm seriously considering it, since it's the only way to be sure.

I'd turn it down to at least "negative" 3 on the HF adjust, give the surrounds time to break in and then decide if you want to proceed with fixing what MIGHT not be broke.
Like I said, I find them to be too energetic as well even when new, and some agree; when you first dial them back things may seem to go too much in the other wrong direction; muffled or too dull. Relax and listen a while and you will hear that all the fine detail is in fact there.
To me it's the same as making judgments on sound after listening for anomalies with my ears too close and the volume to loud, coupled with "new acquisition" anxiety. Seems to be at its worse with used gear.
I have learned through the experience of ownership that JBL tweeters can be RUTHLESSLY revealing, of both source and material. Takes a little time to get them dialed into your room/brain/acoustic combo.
It's the same to me as volume and bass quantity; a lot of it is perceived. That pesky old ear/brain psycho-acoustic thing.
When I play JBLs with a tube amp they never seem as loud, or loud enough, as they do with the big Solid State, until I realize that I am actually YELLING over the music to say something to the other person in the room I am showing the current set up to.
If you've only had them a short time (days?) I'd give it a couple weeks before I decide something was wrong.

Just my experience.

Thomas

[BMWCCA]

And I do have the 4412s, not the 4412A, so I've go the tweeter that's tougher to rebuild. And it won't be cheap. But I'm seriously considering it, since it's the only way to be sure.

You have the ubiquitous 035Ti, available everywhere from Craig's List bargain L20T, L60T, and L80Ts (cheaper than buying new tweets and you can dump the rest on Ebay if that's your thing).

Got news for you though; they sound "edgy" to me on the L80Ts, too, but it's usually the program source or the CD player when I hear it. Much less when I updated to a more-modern but cheap DVD player. The 052Ti in the 4412A isn't really that different, at least to my ears. :dont-know

[Wagner]

Thanks to everyone for the responses. Thomas, I appreciate your thoughtful comments. I actually have had the 4412 for two years, so I've done quite a bit of listening to all sorts of music. And I've tried the "low level" test a number of times. I still hear it at lower volume, though it's not as pronounced. I've never fully accepted that everything is as it should be. I'd get someone to look at them, but we don't have a good JBL specialist here in Cincinnati (at least that I've been able to unearth). My serious dissatisfaction of late came when I had a chance to audition a new set of Acoutic Energy speakers, which have a VERY forward characteristic like the JBLs, but with none of the high end harshness/overload I'm hearing on my 4412s. On the other hand, the 4412 have bass and warmth that the AEs just don't. I'd be quite satisfied with the 4412s if I could clear out this high-end overload thing. So I've tried lots of different gear with the 4412s, and have convinced myself that something is amiss. And I do have the 4412s, not the 4412A, so I've go the tweeter that's tougher to rebuild. And it won't be cheap. But I'm seriously considering it, since it's the only way to be sure.

Sorry, missed the part about having them 2 years.

I still wholeheartedly recommend my approach. I have found that a lot of people want to run those pots set at "0" and if it's not "right" to their ears they become anxious that something must be wrong. Try putting on some music with a lot of HF content, at low volume, with the pot fully counter clockwise. Then slowly start to turn the pot clockwise. You will be surprised how much HF output you get with nearly nothing on the pot. STOP the minute you hear the tweeter kick in definitively, and then try that for a while. And don't look at those basically worthless scale numerals and hash marks on the foilcal while you do it! Trust your ears. Those damn scales (and the ones on volume pots too) drove me crazy for years until I learned how to ignore them! I think they only have any real meaning (besides driving the literally minded nuts) in an anechoic environment. Aside from use as a repeatable reference mark.

JBL (the good stuff) is in a league of it's own. Takes a little work to dial them in to the typical, less than perfect, listening room.

Thomas

[Dave Dunbar]

First, let me say that I sincerely apprecitate this forum and its participants. It's gatifying that several knowledgable JBL users have posted helpful responses. I've tried the suggestions about cleaning the l-pads and connectors, and running the tweeter at a lower level. Alas, in my listening room, any setting below about 12 o'clock on the high level control yields a less-than-satisfying high level response relative to the bass and mid-range. My sources are clean. Through my work, I've had access to multiple re-issues of the work of thousands of popular music artists, so I've been able to audition these and select the very best and most natural-sounding reissues of most of the music in which I have an interest. I tend to play music from the 1950s through the 1970s, and for the sake of discussion, please know that I'm confident I'm listening to the cleanest and best-engineered masterings of most what I listen to. I also have access to studios and friends who have first-rate gear. As I've said, I'm thrilled with mid-range and bass performance of the 4412s (even compared to some very good modern speakers), and have only recently become concerned that my highs are overloading after listening to several newer, and admittedly expensive, speakers. So, here's my new question: Would any of you JBL experts here offer your characterization of what the high end on the 4412 should sound like? Assuming the tweeters are right, and a decent amp and CD player, is it generally clean? Is it subject to overload effects? I'm talking about what the tweaks call "glassing over." Assuming things are right, should I hear overload effects listening at moderately loud levels on vocalists like Patsy Cline, Emmylou Harris or Joni Mitchell? Several people have characterized the nominal high end on the 4412s as "edgy." I like edgy, but not overloaded or distorted. So, how would you characterize the high end on these speakers? Smooth? Edgy? Detailed? Clean? How would you characterize their ability to handle fairly loud female vocals without breaking up? Is 120 watts enough? Assuming the woofer is hungrier for power than the tweeters, I would assume so, because I can play them louder than I can stand with no bass or mid-range distortion. Thanks in advance for your feedback on this.

[Wagner]

Dave, I couldn't tell you if your tweeters are "OK" without hearing them.

You seem convinced that there is a problem; possibly there is.

If you are hearing "distortion" then something is wrong, but I can't tell you what it is.

Those tweeters can handle any clean power you give them. Edgy might have been the wrong word. Should have used "accurate" to the point of being "analytical". They are VERY revealing of all qualities in the chain, but they have never been dominating over the rest of the drivers in the box with the half a dozen or so pairs I own.

Ever listen to later in his career Elvis Costello, like "All This Useless Beauty" on vinyl? All of his records that I own from around this period are rolled off. Some say he (and Brits) like it that way, and the recordings are engineered that way. I don't know if that's true or not, but it's clear many of them are rolled off on my JBLs with Titanium domed tweeters (and everything else I've heard them on). The notoriously sibilant Dianna Krall is never strident, but if she's bothering me at higher levels, I just dial it back a little and she's very natural. I have a good reference as I've seen her live several times and own a couple of here DVDs as well.

That's the best I can do for you.

Good luck,

Thomas

[Wagner]

My sources are clean. Through my work, I've had access to multiple re-issues of the work of thousands of popular music artists, so I've been able to audition these and select the very best and most natural-sounding reissues of most of the music in which I have an interest. I tend to play music from the 1950s through the 1970s, and for the sake of discussion, please know that I'm confident I'm listening to the cleanest and best-engineered masterings of most what I listen to.

Most of which, if not all, were engineered using JBLs.

Thomas

[rdgrimes]

I think we're all shooting in the dark here. If both speakers sound exactly the same then I suppose it could be assumed that they are OK. But it's not hard to find pairs of 035ti on eBay if you want to swap them out. If both of them read the same DCR, swapping them both would be the next step.

Also good to note that these are horizontal near-field designs and will sound different from a distance and especially bad if the room is not right. Early reflections and the like will muddy things up a lot.

It's not impossible that your ear just doesn't like the 035ti, but that would place you in the minority. If that's the case then just try turning them down.

[rusty jefferson]

Hey Dave,

I feel, and hear your pain. I suspect the issue is not with the speakers, per se, but like me your listening has become more sophisticated.

Now I haven't been around this site long, or have a very big collection, but I am a Loyal JBL owner. My father lugged home a pair in 1970 when I was 10 years old, spent 2 weeks of evenings after work building a Heathkit receiver, and introduced our family to Hi-Fi. With the first bit of money I earned, I bought a pair of 4311b monitors, cause that's what I saw being used at a famous recording studio for mix down [ The mixing engineer could reach out and touch both of those speakers they were so close, and rarely played them loud ]. Then with my first real earnings, a pair of L150-A and a B-380. Some time later, another B-380, 4412s and since finding this site, a pair of L7s and I just built some 2245 subs to replace the B-380s I sold to a friend.

A couple of years ago I started upgrading electronics in hope of curing the same issues your describing, the kind of raw or PA sound that was most noticeable in strong female voices. Joni Mitchell, Eva Cassidy, Ella, New York Voices, etc. Jazz, not a problem. Rock, ya can't beat the JBLs. But for pure singers, I was still frustrated to the point that last year I bought a $700.00 Cambridge cd player/transport and a [ gulp ] $3000.00 outboard DAC to finally cure the problem. Two weeks later, I returned both pieces after doing blindfolded A/B comparisons, and although I could pick out the new rig from the old, they weren't very different.

Well, soon after the cd/dac fiasco I was talking to a audio tweeks/wire guy, who after hearing my plight and a description of my system recommended not buying anything from him, but rather trying an inexpensive speaker he was very fond of, the Axiom M3ti [$330.00 /pair new ]. In one instant, all the frustration was washed away. I can't believe such an inexpensive [ built in Canada no less ] loudspeaker can sound so natural.

My current set-up is the Axioms and the 2245 subs. None of my systems has sounded half as good as this one. Even my recent L7 purchase, which was after the Axioms, [ I wasn't ready to give up on JBL yet ] don't cut it when playing powerful singers. The L7s are harsher in the mid frequencies and uncontrolled [for lack of a better adjective] by comparison.

All my JBLs have redeeming characteristics of course, and I enjoy listening to all of them [I can't seem to part with them yet] from time to time. But I recognize my tastes have changed, and so have times.

Good luck with your project. I would consider a pair of these speakers, before spending an equivalent amount replacing/rebuilding drivers that may be fine, but just not to your liking.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/m3.htm