Why is it that pre 1970 speakers so prized today ?

[wolfshead]

After WWII, there was a strong push to build better widgets.....till people figured out that if you build the best widget, the people who bought them would never have to buy another one...Modern thinking is sell as many widgets as you can, ignore the quality, just TELL people they are good..who would ever lie about that?
Someplace along the line, "good enough" started being billed as "superior".

America became a consumer driven society beginning in the 1950's with the explosion of television. Washers and dryers were sold in one's living room. Madison Avenue for the first time had a captive audience.
Everything from toothpaste to cars were sold right there in one's living room.

Than came audio or HiFi not very good at first but why not have a Broadway show in one's living room. First mono and than stereo !
As always there was those who wanted the best , enter component equipment. Most people had a philco or RCA , BUT THERE WAS THOSE WHO WANTED BETTER. JBL , Altec , Western Electric , Marantz , Ampex ,
EV , University , Thorens , Fairfield , etc, etc, etc.

Those who could afford or were hobbist wanted components , the masses
the average joe , was not included. That was the beginning.
Than came those who saw a chance to make a quick buck. The hobbist and those who loved beautiful music was kicked out, Now it was all about profit ! Mass production , outsourcing , Best Buy , and alone with the music keep it cheap but keep it comming.
Michael can't sing , dance or act , but who cares it's all about promotion.
After all who listens anyway.

That is where we are together gentleman. Greed is good !

[scott fitlin]

Than came audio or HiFi not very good at first but why not have a Broadway show in one's living room. First mono and than stereo !
As always there was those who wanted the best , enter component equipment. Most people had a philco or RCA , BUT THERE WAS THOSE WHO WANTED BETTER. JBL , Altec , Western Electric , Marantz , Ampex ,
EV , University , Thorens , Fairfield , etc, etc, etc.

!

Your answering your own debate here.

Then came HiFi, wasn't very good at first! BUT IT DID BECOME GOOD as it grew.

Same thing with todays gear, and technology and medias.

"MOST" people had Philco, NOT Hartsfields or Paragons! The masses of the 1940,s and 1950,s had MASS MARKET JUNK just as we still do today!

"AFFLUENT" members of society, or Die Hard hobbyists had the far more serious gear available to them at the time. but, NOT everyone had....

Todays gear, and todays digital medias have become good, and will get better every day, this is where the R & D is, because this is where the money to be made is.

[scott fitlin]

America became a consumer driven society beginning in the 1950's with the explosion of television. Washers and dryers were sold in one's living room. Madison Avenue for the first time had a captive audience.
Everything from toothpaste to cars were sold right there in one's living room.

Than came audio or HiFi not very good at first but why not have a Broadway show in one's living room. First mono and than stereo !
As always there was those who wanted the best , enter component equipment. Most people had a philco or RCA , BUT THERE WAS THOSE WHO WANTED BETTER. JBL , Altec , Western Electric , Marantz , Ampex ,
EV , University , Thorens , Fairfield , etc, etc, etc.

Those who could afford or were hobbist wanted components , the masses
the average joe , was not included. That was the beginning.
Than came those who saw a chance to make a quick buck. The hobbist and those who loved beautiful music was kicked out, Now it was all about profit ! Mass production , outsourcing , Best Buy , and alone with the music keep it cheap but keep it comming.
Michael can't sing , dance or act , but who cares it's all about promotion.
After all who listens anyway.

That is where we are together gentleman. Greed is good !

All this time I thought mass market consumer capitalism began with Henry Ford's Model T!

Boy was I ever wrong!

[louped garouv]

Been there, done that.....


A Rolex has similar anachronistic attractions and for a couple hundred-dollars in maintenance each year you can even make them come close to keeping time. But all my bosses with their gold GMT-Masters were always asking me to check my $300 Victorinox Swiss Army watch for the correct time. ....


It's really nothing to argue about, they're all JBLs. It's not like we're here to talk Klipsch!

Ha! that was my first thought when Rolex was mentioned...
overhaul costs.....

and how lousy a timekeeper mine is...



it is pretty though, and all the chicks dug it when i was still hitting the meat markets

[andywin]

[QUOTE
Were speakers of 3-4 decades ago better than their counterparts of today? No. Are they worth saving and enjoying? Hell yes!

Is an $800 pair of La Scalas better than any $800 pair of speakers sold today? To some people yes, but it is far from being a universal truth. Same is true for $4K Hartsfields, $5K Paragons etc. etc.
[/QUOTE]

I'm in the fortunate position of being able to compare my Array 1400's with BTH K10A's, a pair of vintage speakers over 50 years old that, in their day, were one of the most expensive in the world.

It's surprising how little design has really progressed. There are differences, mainly the extended high frequency capability, the tighter imaging and the greater slam in the bass of the Array's, contrasting with the K10A's 17kHz roll off, wider focussed imaging and bass more akin to that of the Everest 2's I've heard. The differences reflect the era in which each speaker was designed, and fit the requirements of the recordings and media available at the time.

So are the older BTH's not as good as comparable modern ones? Well....IMHO yes they are and so are a lot of other vintage speakers. The best news though is that people are still making great speakers, and for that to happen there must be a market for them. It might be that that it's only in the far east or wherever, but at least it means they are still produced and we haven't slipped to far down the slippery slope,

[IMG][/IMG]

[Titanium Dome]

Since 90% of my daily listening (done at work) is via iPod through Soundcraftsmen amps and L250, 4430, or L7 pairs, I thought I'd test your premise on myself. It lays out like this:

1. Trance/Progressive Trance 16.09 GB
2. Electronic/Electronica/Dance 16.04 GB
3. Pop/Rock/Hard Rock 7.27 GB
4. Alternative 3.88 GB
5. Classical 2.70 GB
6. Jazz 1.95 GB
7. Hip-Hop/Rap 1.03 GB
8. New Age 0.95 GB
9. Reggae 0.83 GB
10. Country 0.54 GB

Maybe that's why I really like the mid 1980s to 2009 JBLs, and especially the stuff from the late 1990s onward. That's when the good stuff really started to drift up from the underground.

It sounds great, just freakin' great, on Performance Series and Array style gear.

Umm, 'cause we're kind of a Rockin'Roll/Rockin'Soul kind of crowd, thats the era most of us grew up in, and most of these speakers were made for that kind of music?

Yeah, I know I have the world beat and trance stuff, tons of celtic/folk music, the Delos Eargle and klezmer stuff, some pipe organ "tunes", some lovely Ludwig Van and such ... but most of the lot is Rock based ...

[scott fitlin]

[QUOTE
Were speakers of 3-4 decades ago better than their counterparts of today? No. Are they worth saving and enjoying? Hell yes!

Is an $800 pair of La Scalas better than any $800 pair of speakers sold today? To some people yes, but it is far from being a universal truth. Same is true for $4K Hartsfields, $5K Paragons etc. etc.

I'm in the fortunate position of being able to compare my Array 1400's with BTH K10A's, a pair of vintage speakers over 50 years old that, in their day, were one of the most expensive in the world.

It's surprising how little design has really progressed. There are differences, mainly the extended high frequency capability, the tighter imaging and the greater slam in the bass of the Array's, contrasting with the K10A's 17kHz roll off, wider focussed imaging and bass more akin to that of the Everest 2's I've heard. The differences reflect the era in which each speaker was designed, and fit the requirements of the recordings and media available at the time.

So are the older BTH's not as good as comparable modern ones? Well....IMHO yes they are and so are a lot of other vintage speakers. The best news though is that people are still making great speakers, and for that to happen there must be a market for them. It might be that that it's only in the far east or wherever, but at least it means they are still produced and we haven't slipped to far down the slippery slope,

[IMG][/IMG][/QUOTE]For me though, the VERY thing I once LOVED and CHERISHED my Altec 15in woofers for, are the VERY thing that makes hem sort of NOT as good with todays digital music. The HIGH compliance suspensions were PHENOMENAL sounding when music didn't have the amount of LF it does today, and didn't go nearly as deep as what is present in todays digital recordings. 70,s and 80,s music sounded lovely thru my Altecs, but mushy, soggy and muddy with no real definition and articulation of bass notes playing modern music. When I updated to modern woofers, with modern power handling, I couldn't believe how the bass tightened up, the entire system sounded like MUSIC once again!

Now in todays world, a 20 watt speaker won't do me much good. In a home enviroment, IF you like listening to them, that is fine.

For me, todays good products perform better, for me, with todays music.

Then, there is an issue with serviceability, and parts. What do I do IF something breaks and PARTS ARE NLA?

This does not mean I don't like anything older, just that I found todays stuff does work, used correctly.

[Beowulf57]

Dianne Krall is destined to achieve CLASSIC status. And she hails from TODAY, not yesterday.

Listen on a really fine "archaic" system and you'll discover it's "Diana."

[scott fitlin]

Listen on a really fine "archaic" system and you'll discover it's "Diana."

Don't have to! I am READING on a MODERN, VERY MODERN laptop, and YOU showed me!

See, this NEW stuff does work!

[Beowulf57]

Don't have to! I am READING on a MODERN, VERY MODERN laptop, and YOU showed me!

See, this NEW stuff does work!

That's the spirit! Combine the ancient and the modern: when the roots are good, the tree flourishes and the new buds are healthy.

[andywin]

[QUOTE me though, the VERY thing I once LOVED and CHERISHED my Altec 15in woofers for, are the VERY thing that makes hem sort of NOT as good with todays digital music. The HIGH compliance suspensions were PHENOMENAL sounding when music didn't have the amount of LF it does today, and didn't go nearly as deep as what is present in todays digital recordings. 70,s and 80,s music sounded lovely thru my Altecs, but mushy, soggy and muddy with no real definition and articulation of bass notes playing modern music. When I updated to modern woofers, with modern power handling, I couldn't believe how the bass tightened up, the entire system sounded like MUSIC once again!

Now in todays world, a 20 watt speaker won't do me much good. In a home enviroment, IF you like listening to them, that is fine.

For me, todays good products perform better, for me, with todays music.

Then, there is an issue with serviceability, and parts. What do I do IF something breaks and PARTS ARE NLA?

This does not mean I don't like anything older, just that I found todays stuff does work, used correctly.[/QUOTE]

Who said anything about musshy soggy & muddy bass. The BTH's articulate the lower frequencies very well. They don't have the slam of the Array's but that doesn't make them less musical. I have now heard the new Everest DD6600 and they and the BTH's are very similar in the way they present the lower frequencies.

Power handling is all relative to sensitivity. Having a 600W rated speaker does not make it better than a 20W rated one. For PA or disco use I would agree that vintage speakers are not really suitable nnowadays but for home use they can be as good as a modern speaker.

As for parts availability. I see a lot of threads complaining the lack of availability for fairly recent JBL models. Yes there is the aftermarket and that exists for vintage speakers too. My BTH speakers have the effectively the same cones as WE 4181's and yes they are being reproduced.

[scott fitlin]

Power handling is a major concern for me. I understand a high sensitivity speaker, with low power handling not really being an issue for home use.

Parts, produced, reproduced, or otherwise, a MAJOR factor to me, and WILL prevent me from buying something, or force me to change from something to something else!

Bass articulation! Sorry, Andy, gotta disagree with you on this! Depends on what you listen to! Playing some of todays music, that has far lower frequency than a speaker was ever designed to really have to cope with, really overtaxes some high compliance suspensions.

In the end, however, it is up to the end user to decide for themselves what is right for them, good or bad, workable or not, etc!

[wolfshead]

[QUOTE me though, the VERY thing I once LOVED and CHERISHED my Altec 15in woofers for, are the VERY thing that makes hem sort of NOT as good with todays digital music. The HIGH compliance suspensions were PHENOMENAL sounding when music didn't have the amount of LF it does today, and didn't go nearly as deep as what is present in todays digital recordings. 70,s and 80,s music sounded lovely thru my Altecs, but mushy, soggy and muddy with no real definition and articulation of bass notes playing modern music. When I updated to modern woofers, with modern power handling, I couldn't believe how the bass tightened up, the entire system sounded like MUSIC once again!

Now in todays world, a 20 watt speaker won't do me much good. In a home enviroment, IF you like listening to them, that is fine.

For me, todays good products perform better, for me, with todays music.

Then, there is an issue with serviceability, and parts. What do I do IF something breaks and PARTS ARE NLA?

This does not mean I don't like anything older, just that I found todays stuff does work, used correctly.

Who said anything about musshy soggy & muddy bass. The BTH's articulate the lower frequencies very well. They don't have the slam of the Array's but that doesn't make them less musical. I have now heard the new Everest DD6600 and they and the BTH's are very similar in the way they present the lower frequencies.

Power handling is all relative to sensitivity. Having a 600W rated speaker does not make it better than a 20W rated one. For PA or disco use I would agree that vintage speakers are not really suitable nnowadays but for home use they can be as good as a modern speaker.

As for parts availability. I see a lot of threads complaining the lack of availability for fairly recent JBL models. Yes there is the aftermarket and that exists for vintage speakers too. My BTH speakers have the effectively the same cones as WE 4181's and yes they are being reproduced.[/quote]
Your key quote is today's music. Again you are correct older speakers were really not designed for music of today.
Johnny Mathis was asked , what was the difference between the music of his era and today's music. His answer was '" DCIBELS "

The vast majority of pre-1970 audio designed speakers in America has emigrated to Europe and Japan. Europe remains today to this day an innovator in efficent loudspeaker design.
Than there is cost ,the 375 drivers are extremely expensive to produce or purchase.
Speakers today or more room friendly slimmer.Most music today is much
louder therefore there is little need for definition.
For examples the LP has more definition , the CD more dynamic.The Ipod another story.

Is newer better ? not always if so than there is no place for a concert grand Steinway or a Stradivari violin.

Again music is learned and in many cases environmental , generally a
classical recording or a small jazz group will sound better on a pair of Hartsfieds or a Bozak Concert Grand. Those speakers will only expose
the poor quality that is today's music.

[wolfshead]

Since 90% of my daily listening (done at work) is via iPod through Soundcraftsmen amps and L250, 4430, or L7 pairs, I thought I'd test your premise on myself. It lays out like this:

1. Trance/Progressive Trance 16.09 GB
2. Electronic/Electronica/Dance 16.04 GB
3. Pop/Rock/Hard Rock 7.27 GB
4. Alternative 3.88 GB
5. Classical 2.70 GB
6. Jazz 1.95 GB
7. Hip-Hop/Rap 1.03 GB
8. New Age 0.95 GB
9. Reggae 0.83 GB
10. Country 0.54 GB

Maybe that's why I really like the mid 1980s to 2009 JBLs, and especially the stuff from the late 1990s onward. That's when the good stuff really started to drift up from the underground.

It sounds great, just freakin' great, on Performance Series and Array style gear.

In St.Louis Bob Shaw the local representative for Bozak and one of the audio engineers for the St.Louis symphony , would do a test, live vs. recorded sound. Powell symphony hall has excellent acoustics one of the finest halls in America.

It was almost impossible to tell the difference between live vs recorded sound using Bozak Concert Grands , Marantz 7c's ,Model 9 power amps and first generation tape recordings. The Bozak's were tri-amp. 6 Model 9's were used. From the quietest soloist to the thunder of a full symphony
the music was indistinguishable !

To sum up music today , there is an old Hollywood saying, in Hollywood today the men are short and the women ugly , and their dress ?

[scott fitlin]

Sorry Wolf, but, music today is THE same as music production has been for quite a long time. Back in the 70,s, we had WELL RECORDED music in every genre, but we also had OVER COMPRESSED ROCK, and DISCO so they could make louder and punchier recordings. No NEW ground covered here! However, you should take some of the vinyl records of YOUR favorite era's, and read them on a scope or RTA your system while this music is playing through your system. And SEE what really is or IS NOT on those older recordings. Many vinyl recordings, were tailored to fit the limitations of the existing vinyl media! Rolled off bass below 65hz on 45,s and rolled off below 45hz on 70,s albums! Rolled off highs as well. Then, they used compression as well, it had to be done! We just couldn't fit complete wide scale dynamics onto the vinyl! Not to mention symphonies. Mixdown of symphonic recordings sometimes required some compression otherwise you, I, we, would never be able to hear that oh so delicate little flute, piccolo, or triangles coming from all the way back there! I have records from wayyy back, too! Benny Goodman, lots of salsa, some jazz, whatever floats my boat! The music was great, but when I listen to many of the pre 70,s recordings, the technology itself is LOADED with flaws. Oh, I have good turntables, arms and cartridges, too, and I KNOW HOW TO PROPERLY SET THEM UP AND BALANCE THEM! Audio is, was, and will probably always be a series of compromises to get to the end product that can be produced that we buy. Matter of fact, the other evening, I was listening to music of MY youth, the 1972 to 1979 era, and I still like much of that music, BUT MAN can I hear the deficiencies in ALL these recordings. Sonically, and this was surprising to me, I found myself quickly returning to todays recordings, they just sound fuller and richer, better high end, low end, SMOOTHER midrange. Some of the old songs on records had some seriously screechy midrange, and not much else, albeit the songs were fun, but THIS IS WHAT IT REALLY WAS! Oh, BTW, I was listening to James Horner's AVATAR soundtrack, which I "DOWNLOADED" and THIS work sounds FANTASTIC to me. HERESY I know it to be, but my ears tell me what they tell me! And this Avatar soundtrack is TODAY, and IS music. My taste and collections of music are WIDE and quite varied. It took a while for digital formats to become usable and GOOD but, we are there. And it will only get better and better...

The 375? JBL makes compression drivers that are still great, however, EXPENSIVE! Materials and technologies are different than what they used 40 years ago, and guess what? Materials and technologies of 40 years ago are different from what they used 70 and 80 years ago! Before permanent magnet drivers using alnico, we had field coil drivers, EVEN more expensive to make, but, some say sound the BEST of them all! There is still a need for drivers that can reproduce accurately, the transient details, and complex waveforms in music. If you want premium goods, you can get them, will you pay the price? But it is available!

As I remember, and THIS I do remember, I lived through THIS era, THE 8 TRACK TAPE, HUGELY popular pre 70,s and early 70,s! And HUGELY portable music format, hugely successful, and really a pretty crappy format, but I remember my uncles 1969 Caddy with the 8 track, listening to Mongo Santamaria, Vanilla Fudge, Cream, Beatles, Stones, and Diana Ross and the Supremes in his car on the way to wherever we were going, MAN that was the stuff of the moment. But it was commercial consumer crap! UP THE LADDER TO THE ROOF!

OTOH, didn't see too many cars with custom reel to reel in them!