Why is it that pre 1970 speakers so prized today ?

[wolfshead]

The advent of the transistor enable U.S. manufactures to reduce cost in amplification. High power -low cost. The move from valves to transistors had little to do with sonic improvement. It was as they say all about money.

Most speaker design in the United States since 1970 has been built around more exotic driver materials and inexpensive transistors. Thus the vast majority of speakers on the market are multi-driver affairs with complex power eating crossovers. Too many modern speakers are Hifi-ish and
artifical .

The JBL line from the Paragon to the much desired Hartsfields rarely service. Were among the best sounding loudspeakers produced.
My AR'S are an early example of the move away from large music producing speakers to small one's with very little high end but an exceptable low end.

Today audio is only a supporter to video. The iPOD has replaced the CD.
Another move that makes economic sense , but only adds to the exceptability of low quality sound.

Music has paid a major part in the poor quality of today's music, pop music
for example rarely uses an orchestra. The center of most homes today is the entertainment center with the focus on video. The speakers and amplification takes a back seat.

We may wait around and hope but the days of the great music producing systems made in America is over , as are the great movies from Hollywood.

[Mr. Widget]

We may wait around and hope but the days of the great music producing systems made in America is over , as are the great movies from Hollywood.

With the exception of your comments on video being the driving force in today's home entertainment economy I tend to disagree with most of your observations though I understand how you could come to these conclusions. I think Seawolf in sheep's clothing got most of it right.

Today's Hartsfield is the JBL Everest II see a pic below. I think you would be amazed at what it can do. There are literally dozens of American made, and other makes of high quality electronics that will make a pair of these speakers sing like you couldn't imagine, though you will have to spend a small fortune to get this system, an audiophile in the golden era of Hi-Fi had to spend a relative fortune on a McIntosh powered pair of Hartsfields back in the day.

[speakerdave]

The acceptance of the small acoustic suspension speaker was mated to the development of stereo with its demands on space and placement. They needed far more power. The revival of interest in the more efficient older speakers, and the development of new high-efficiency speakers is part of the revival of interest in tube amps, especially small ones, as well as the realization that because of power compression very few inefficient speakers can reproduce the dynamism available in the big amps.

[scott fitlin]

I used to think like you Wolf. What happened to all the good speakers, the good music, the good, the good, the GONE!

However, music, speakers, and technology have changed drastically. And right now, the technology AND the music are getting GOOD!

Some times OUR reluctance to acceptance.....

[hjames]

I used to think like you Wolf. What happened to all the good speakers, the good music, the good, the good, the GONE!

However, music, speakers, and technology have changed drastically. And right now, the technology AND the music are getting GOOD!

Some times OUR reluctance to acceptance.....

Or sometimes we fail to realize that what we hold as regular is far beyond the grasp of the "somewhat above average" breadwinner ..

I mean really, a high end mac system with a pair of Everest II is hardly within the budget of the regular discerning listener.
Its really a "bespoke" sound system, don't you think?

And frankly, you can do Good sound with a heck of a lot less than $70+k, don't you think?
Or did I misremember the Everest II as being a $60k pair of speakers?

[scott fitlin]

Or sometimes we fail to realize that what we hold as regular is far beyond the grasp of the "somewhat above average" breadwinner ..

I mean really, a high end mac system with a pair of Everest II is hardly within the budget of the regular discerning listener.
Its really a "bespoke" sound system, don't you think?

And frankly, you can do Good sound with a heck of a lot less than $70+k, don't you think?
Or did I misremember the Everest II as being a $60k pair of speakers?

I do not think, one has to spend 70 grand on speakers to achieve great sound in their home. But, yes it does cost some money, and yes, I agree it is sometimes above the budget of the average consumer.

OTOH this very thing has also been taking place since time and memorial. Just as we have legendary products of the past, so too, do we have LEGENDARY garbage of the past! Anyone remember those ALL IN ONE BSR systems? The turntable was built right into the receiver, the speakers had an 8in or 6in full range driver made by I have no idea, and the cabinets were made of the cheapest flake board. People bought these too!

We do the same today as we did then! It goes BOTH ways!

[wolfshead]

With the exception of your comments on video being the driving force in today's home entertainment economy I tend to disagree with most of your observations though I understand how you could come to these conclusions. I think Seawolf in sheep's clothing got most of it right.

Today's Hartsfield is the JBL Everest II see a pic below. I think you would be amazed at what it can do. There are literally dozens of American made, and other makes of high quality electronics that will make a pair of these speakers sing like you couldn't imagine, though you will have to spend a small fortune to get this system, an audiophile in the golden era of Hi-Fi had to spend a relative fortune on a McIntosh powered pair of Hartsfields back in the day.

The audiophile is not the masses. There were excellent speakers made by JBL that was much less expensive. Speaker cabinets such as C35 ,36, 37 and C38 bass reflex cabinets. There also was rear loaded corner consoles, C34 , C43 & C55. These cabinet consoles could except a variety of speaker combinations.

The D130 , D131 , and D 123 were beginner speaker systems which could be upgraded. One could build their own cabinet or buy a kit.
There were many amp manufactures and kit manufactures with amps and
recievers ranging from $100.00 , to over $300.00, A Marantz 7C preamp sold for $274.00. Considered by many the finest tube preamp made.
The Mac C22 preamp was a close second $289.00.

I would not rate your speaker system with Hartsfields , Concert Grands ,
Imperials , Patricians , GRF etc,etc. It is not to say that your speaker system is not excellent.
Example what popular singer today compares with Frank Sinatra ? or dancer with Fred Astaire ?
Excellence can be had today but at a very high price. A Rolex Dayjust in 1963 sold for $150.00 today $6500.00.

[speakerdave]

I've found that price comparisons via inflation calculators, for TOTL items reflect a big increase in discretionary money in the upper levels of the economy. But what's the news in that? That the trend of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer has been going on for decades has been no secret. You can't blame JBL or any other company for targeting that market.

The asking price for a JBL 1500Al woofer (used in the K2 S9900) today is $1850, $261 in 1962 dollars. JBL'S most expensive woofer at that time was less than half that, but it's really not a legitimate comparison because the 1500Al is very much more complex, was created out of a tremendous investment of engineering, and is difficult to manufacture, but most important, is an order of magnitude better! It is a new kind of product intended for a new market with its own demands.

If you compare products at various competitive, consumer-level price points, I think you will find that present products are in keeping with inflation calculators or are a little cheaper.

[wolfshead]

I've found that price comparisons via inflation calculators, for TOTL items reflect a big increase in discretionary money in the upper levels of the economy. But what's the news in that? That the trend of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer has been going on for decades has been no secret. You can't blame JBL or any other company for targeting that market.

The asking price for a JBL 1500Al woofer (used in the K2 S9900) today is $1850, $261 in 1962 dollars. JBL'S most expensive woofer at that time was less than half that, but it's really not a legitimate comparison because the 1500Al is very much more complex, was created out of a tremendous investment of engineering, and is difficult to manufacture, but most important, is an order of magnitude better! It is a new kind of product intended for a new market with its own demands.

If you compare products at various competitive, consumer-level price points, I think you will find that present products are in keeping with inflation calculators or are a little cheaper.

I Would disagree with you as for as values vs prices. A Rolex watch today
is much more over priced than one available 40 years ago. $450.00 vs $6500. In 1962 JBL's most expensive woofer the 150-4C sold for $114.00

There actually is more discretionary income today especially with a larger middleclass. There is no blame , it is just that companies such as JBL were
sold and the new owners were not that interested in audio but in the bottom line.
I remember talking to Saul Marantz at one of his visits to St.Louis , The new Marantz 10B was being presented. Mr. Marantz said it cost more to
manufacture the 10B than what we were paying for it.

The list of pioneers in audio of those that sold out or closed because of cheap transistor and the change in musical taste as well as lower expectations is endless. Marantz , Jenson , Electro Voice , Ampex, Crown ,
Fisher , Scott, Bogen , Pilot , Garrad , Empire , Rek-O Kut etc,etc.

Frank Sinatra said in the musical " That's Entertainment " You can wait around and hope but you will never see that again "

[speakerdave]

I don't see what relevance Rolex watches have to any discussion here. They are nothing but power jewelry, and you can get a time piece just as accurate for $25.

In audio there are improvements in performance at the higher price points. Yes, there is some conspicuous consumption going on as well, but there are definite tiers of music reproduction quality.

I'm having difficulty finding the focus of your posts.

I also think you missed the main point of mine that you quoted.

I Would disagree with you as for as values vs prices. A Rolex watch today
is much more over priced than one available 40 years ago. $450.00 vs $6500. In 1962 JBL's most expensive woofer the 150-4C sold for $114.00

There actually is more discretionary income today especially with a larger middleclass. There is no blame , it is just that companies such as JBL were
sold and the new owners were not that interested in audio but in the bottom line.
I remember talking to Saul Marantz at one of his visits to St.Louis , The new Marantz 10B was being presented. Mr. Marantz said it cost more to
manufacture the 10B than what we were paying for it.

The list of pioneers in audio of those that sold out or closed because of cheap transistor and the change in musical taste as well as lower expectations is endless. Marantz , Jenson , Electro Voice , Ampex, Crown ,
Fisher , Scott, Bogen , Pilot , Garrad , Empire , Rek-O Kut etc,etc.

Frank Sinatra said in the musical " That's Entertainment " You can wait around and hope but you will never see that again "

[scott fitlin]

I Would disagree with you as for as values vs prices. A Rolex watch today
is much more over priced than one available 40 years ago. $450.00 vs $6500. In 1962 JBL's most expensive woofer the 150-4C sold for $114.00

There actually is more discretionary income today especially with a larger middleclass. There is no blame , it is just that companies such as JBL were
sold and the new owners were not that interested in audio but in the bottom line.
I remember talking to Saul Marantz at one of his visits to St.Louis , The new Marantz 10B was being presented. Mr. Marantz said it cost more to
manufacture the 10B than what we were paying for it.

The list of pioneers in audio of those that sold out or closed because of cheap transistor and the change in musical taste as well as lower expectations is endless. Marantz , Jenson , Electro Voice , Ampex, Crown ,
Fisher , Scott, Bogen , Pilot , Garrad , Empire , Rek-O Kut etc,etc.

Frank Sinatra said in the musical " That's Entertainment " You can wait around and hope but you will never see that again "

And you waited from 1962, until NOW to get this off your chest?

I couldn't live that way my own self, but, hey, to each their own!

[BMWCCA]

The list of pioneers in audio of those that sold out or closed because of cheap transistor and the change in musical taste as well as lower expectations is endless. Marantz , Jenson , Electro Voice , Ampex, Crown ...

Has anyone told Crown that they are closed? It might come as a rude shock to the guys and gals in Elkhart, Indiana.

[JBLAddict]

There actually is more discretionary income today especially with a larger middleclass.

there is not more discretionary income today, there is more discretionary spending of money people don't actually have in the form of credit that they are not actually able to payoff......there might be a few articles on the internet on this topic

[speakerdave]

. . . . A Marantz 7C preamp sold for $274.00. Considered by many the finest tube preamp made.
. . . .

I think you've bought into some collector frenzy here. I owned one once. If modified it came close to the Audio Research SP3a-1, now available for about half what the 7c draws. I've also owned two more tube preamps, the Audio Research SP8 and the Conrad Johnson PV9, which are better, and can be bought now for about one-third of what the 7c draws. You will note that these are not the most expensive preamps those companies have offered; far from it.

I have to say, you are really all over the place with your posts.

[Titanium Dome]

I think it's great that folks like the old stuff, and it's super that some of it still works well. It's also nice that occasionally someone finds a really well-presevered specimen that elicits oohs and aahs from admirers. I ooh! and aah! myself. In some cases someone can spend a few hundred $$ to a few thousand $$ and restore these vintage pieces to original glory status.

For me, once the love-fest-of-the-past is over, it's all just old stuff that's been superseded by better stuff.

Like heather writes, this is old ground we're covering, but for the sake of any who might not know how I feel ( ) let me drop my load on the ground one more time:

NOT interested in underperforming, overhyped antiques.

Thanks everyone for stopping by.