new member model 19 questions

[listener2]

Hello,all.
I just joined this very informative board to try to get some help with a particular question regarding altec model 19 speakers.
After reading pretty thoroughly here, I was all set on the 19 until I saw pics of the crossover compared to pics of the valencia crossovers.
Yikes!
For a non-tech guy that was scary.

So for my questions:
Is the crossover in the model 19 a first order or second or what?
And does its apparent complexity compared to the valencia's simplicity make it a poor or less good choice for SE tube amps and/or the technically ignorant DIY-er?

I like the size and cabinet and apparent better build quality of the nineteen, but need the speaker that will work best with my 10 watt tube amp.
Should I stick with 19 or go valencia?

I know a lot of this has been addressed before, but I can't find the exact type or order of crossover in the 19.
Plus any subjective personal insights would be appreciated.
Thanks.

[DaveV]

I wouldn't worry about what looks like a complex xover in the Model 19 because it really isn't that complex nor should it amount to anything to speak of in the way of using a ten watt amp over Valencias.
The addition of a few resistors and a cap or two isn't rocket science nor some kind of unexplained black magic.
Most of the extra parts you see are to somewhat tame the 802G while extending the high frequency response. You might say that energy is being taken from the midrange and being used to give some lift to the higher frequencies.
My opinion is that the Altec engineers knew what they were doing with this one and the result pleases many leading to the end of the speaker search and that includes me.
I had Flamencos, the Valencia in a different cabinet, and I'll take the Model 19's any day. The bass is better, the mids are smoother and there's better HF extension.
Some people seem to like the untamed 806 midrange with limited high frequencies but I wasn't one of them.
You can go nuts and make all kinds of "upgrades" to the 19's but my approach, after an "upgrade" that didn't sound like one, has been to stay minimal and just replace the caps, internal wiring and the speaker cable connector blocks under the speakers.
I did also have the 802G diaphrams replaced and the magnets recharged by Great Plains to be sure what I was working with and listening to.
If you use the original pots on the xovers, just make sure they are very clean inside or they may degrade the sound as will tired caps.
You might try doing a search for Model 19, Model 19 xover or Model 19 crossover because there's been lots of Model 19 threads.
If you going to be using a 10 watt per channel amplifier I wouldn't expect to be using too much bass boost if you want lots of clean volume in a larger room.
The Valencias and 19's are efficient but if your into pipe organ recordings with 10db of bass boost I wouldn't expect much in the way of volume before the amps go under.
I'm using 25 watts per channel with about 4db of bass boost under 100HZ and there's no problem in my not so large listening room.

[listener2]

Thanks for the reply DaveV.
I am planning on this being my last speaker,as well, and really only had reservations about the crossover in relation to my chosen amp.
But apparently it should be fine.
So I am going to take the plunge.
And I am going to try and not go nuts with mods, but instead just have fun with some big sound.
Thanks for the tips.
(bass boost--that sounds like fun!)

I'll report back with a post when I acquire a pair.

[DaveV]

I guess to simplify things you can say that the 19 xovers are 2nd order but that doesn't mean much in itself.
The efficiency of the drivers is really more of an issue than what's wasted in the xover.
The Western Electric/Altec 755 eight inch driver is the Holy Grail of full range drivers with the "crossoverless" group but it's not all that efficient nor will it ever sound like a Model 19 so it boils down to belief convictions and sonic taste.
I had Altec 755B's with a pair of Altec 3000H tweeters and there's no way I could live with them after hearing the Model 19's.
The interesting thing about older Altecs is that there is something there that's catchy and that's how I ended up with the Flamencos over the EV's I had been using.
The highs were almost non existant and the bass was more of a one note bass to me (846A without ports) yet there was something there that I liked.
I ended up adding tweeters and was happier with them but the ultimate upgrade for me was to move to the Model 19's and be done with it.
The other interesting thing I find with the 8 ohm 19's is that they respond well to tube or transistor amps and that makes me think that the impedance curve is smoother than that of the the Flamencos marked as being 8 to 16 ohms.
These are my impressions and opinions so take them as just that. One persons opinion but the 19's are the best speakers "overall" that I've owned or as someone else who frequents this group says, " the best turn key speaker."

[listener2]

I have seen the 19 described as "turn-key" as well, and that is part of what interests me.
I am coming from the crossoverless single-driver experience and now am ready for the big sound of a 15in. driver.
I have had to decide all of this from afar via the internet,but after looking at the valencia, which many guys of similar tastes and experience seem to prefer or advocate, I,too,just think the 19 looks more like a speaker of long-term livability and just more complete.The "playing at the knees" size of the valencia and apparent lesser build quality bother me.Just the larger size of the woofer cabinet alone of the 19 seems to make a lot more sense.
But after being "crossoverless" for quite a while now,that one factor with the nineteen has given me pause.But I agree, the overall sensitivity and simplicity of the speaker should outweigh any possible negatives from the crossover.
I have a 34 ft. long listening room now(part of the reason that the SD no longer cuts it),so I can't wait to get a pair of these babies in here.
I like blues,jazz,female vocals,but I am first going to run through my entire collection of Zeppelin.
I think I will put on my sunglasses,leather jacket and strap myself into my chair.
Should be a blast!

[DaveV]

Looks like it's a two way conversation on the 19's.
The 19's will be different than a single driver for sure. Especially in a large room, not that they really need a huge room to sound good in.
That's another misconception because they do near field with imaging very well but of course at lower volume levels.
I don't know where the idea came from that crossovers and multiple drivers are all bad because some of the best sounding speakers have xovers and more than one driver.
On paper you can point to this and that BUT in real life does it really sound bad?
While specs have there place, we listen to music, not square waves and all distortion does not sound bad.
If your able to overlook missing lower bass and upper treble then a single driver works.
The 19's upper and lower range extension isn't superior to some other speakers, it's the way it sounds in what it does do.
Without some treble boost they may sound kind of dull on top but more so then a single driver?
The published info shows that they start to roll off around 11-12KHZ so a few db boost at 20KHZ isn't unreasonable with a gentle slope up to 20KHZ.
You mentioned build quality a couple of times but I can't say that my Flamenco construction was inferior to that of the 19's so that confuses me somewhat. Just two different Altecs.
I think the engineering thought behind the 19 is far better and that makes it a better speaker to listen too.The B version of the woofer plus the larger format 802G HF driver with the phase plug certainly don't hurt either.
Cabinet wise there's no real heroics.
The woofer has more volume but some would argue that it's too much space for the 416B to work into and that retuning the port will lower the bass response.
That may very well be true BUT doing so may make the 19's sound like they have less bass. I like the peaks the way they are in my room. LOL
Coming from a single driver to a horn based upper range will no doubt be different but I don't find the 19's to be SHOUTY at all but I'm used to horns.
I found the Flamencos to be shouty until I was able to cut back on the 806 drivers by adding a tweeters. Before that it was difficult to get enough treble without honking up the midrange more but that's just my opinion.