Need a New Amp Set-Up...Recs?

[Punch]

Ok, I am know I am opening a can of worms and that everyone has their opinions, but my peers here know more about JBLs and amps that like JBLs than any other place in this solar system.

Sooooo. I am hoping this thread will be as popular as my 250 thread.

I am thinking of another amp and CD combo....real soon. I had a modded NAD 317 Integrated Amp which I used for a long time with the 166s. It has a great punch and bass response, but it is a bit harsh. Just this year, I upgraded and bought the McIntosh Integrated and a Mac CD.

Now that I have the 250Ti's, I would like to get a very full, clean amp with a good bass response....a PUNCH. My McIntosh MA6500 and MVP851 CD are just too thin sounding....I am not sure if it is just me, but I remember my L166's sounding better than they do since I switched to the Mac gear this year. It does not seem like there is a lot behind the speakers...not a lot on tap.

So, I need an amp for the 250s and 166s. I have been told to try Crown, BGW, Bryston, or Perreaux.

I am not looking for "the" amp right now since I know it will be a step-by-step evolutionary process, but getting close to it would be nice. You all have been doing this A LOT longer than I have, and I value your opinions. I would like to keep the budget close to my McIntosh, but I would not mind a good bang-for-the-buck if there is a magical set-up that is less.

Thanks...let the can of worms open up.

p.s. A modern, non-fussy amp that does not need to be overhauled would be nice

[Mr. Widget]

So, I need an amp for the 250s and 166s. I have been told to try Crown, BGW, Bryston, or Perreaux.

I am not looking for "the" amp right now since I know it will be a step-by-step evolutionary process, but getting close to it would be nice. You all have been doing this A LOT longer than I have, and I value your opinions. I would like to keep the budget close to my McIntosh, but I would not mind a good bang-for-the-buck if there is a magical set-up that is less.

Thanks...let the can of worms open up.

p.s. A modern, non-fussy amp that does not need to be overhauled would be nice

The Mac pair you have retail for $7500... I like Macs... but there are many pieces of gear I'd buy before I'd buy those two.

First for the CD player... For me that's an easy recommendation. I'd get the Bryston BDA-1 DAC and use any decent CD player with a digital output. (I think of CD players as being fairly disposable so new or used doesn't matter.) This DAC will improve the sound of almost any CD player and it can be used with an iPod and Wadia dock or any digital music server system... definitely the way of the not too distant future.

As for the amp, I agree with your modern "no overhaul" approach. As one vintage amp after another blows up I appreciate my newer more reliable ones more and more.

Amp suggestions? That is so subjective and unlike my Bryston DAC recommendation, no amp is so clearly superior to all of the others to make it that easy. That said, here is my alphabetical short list:

Audio Research
Balanced Audio Technologies
Bryston
Electrocompaniet
Mark Levinson
Pass Labs
Parasound Halo (especially the JC-1)
Perreaux

Good luck in your search!


Widget

[Punch]

thanks Widget...

I have about $4k invested into those 2 pieces. What would be your choice under $2500 and why?

Have you heard the Musical Fideltiy that S-Man recommended?

Separates....or are there any modern integrated you like?

[Allanvh5150]

I would go down the Perreaux track myself. I have a bunch of them from the smallest to the biggest. There is not a very large part count and they are not overly expensive to do a total rebuild on. They are on Ebay quite often and for a very good price if you are Stateside. An old PMF 3150 or PMF5150 would suit your needs very well or maybe even the proffesional 6000B or 8000B.

Allan.

[Punch]

Allan! I was wondering why you were replying...it is 3:41am in Chicago right now.

Thanks.

p.s. Gee...I wonder why you like the PMF-"5150"

[Allanvh5150]

because it is only 10:44pm in NZ.

[Allanvh5150]

p.s. Gee...I wonder why you like the PMF-"5150"

Good spotting. It is also the US police code for lunatic and it is an album by Van Halen, hence the VH. I think it was purely coincidental there was a perreaux of the same name.

Allan.

[Punch]

Someone posted this reply to me on AK:

Why not just use the preamp out of the MA6500 and then get some sort of brute of a 'pro-sumer' type amp like one of the QSC/Crown types. I see them on CL here in the Bay Area on a regular basis. That will likely get you the ooomph you're looking for.

Frankly, though, you might want to investigate speaker placement and other things that can help. If I read this right, the speakers are new to you and the amp/CD player are too. I've had an MA-6500 myself and know it can perform quite well so I'm suspecting there are other things at play in your case.

Another idea: IIRC, your CD player has variable outputs so you could also eliminate the preamp by plugging it into the power amp inputs on the MA-6500 to see what it would sound like. Not sure what you'd do with the results, though, but just a thought.

Opinions?

[Punch]

Well....Audio Classics did not agree with that guy's response from AK. I just received this from them:

It appears the writer is not knowledgeable of your 250Ti's otherwise he would not be recommending a "pro-sumer" type amp. These tend to be hard sounding as they are typically used for sound reinforcement, not necessarily for low distortion and lack of listening fatigue. Of the various makes, Crown would rank among the best but I know they will have a bright. edgy character with the JBL's. Yamaha would definitely be out of the question, in my opinion.
With regard to the MVP851, this does not have a variable output so running directly into the MA6500 amp Inputs will provide full blast volume!

Frankly, with these speakers your amp options are really limited and they require an well designed amp or else they will reveal the amp flaws. There aren't many speakers as demanding of amp quality as these are so the normal flexibility with other JBK designs are not easily accommodated. As an option to the MA6500 amp, you might try Conrad-Johnson or Audio Research in high power choices. However, for the money, I have reservations as to how much actual benefit you will realize.

This is probably not the answer you want to hear but I honestly feel that is the reality with these speakers. I still think the best result would be adding the McIntosh MC352 to the MA6500 preamp and really making those speakers perform as they should. This is 350 wpc @ 100 peak amps per channel and a Fully Balanced (Quad Differential) design offering the lowest distortion, hum or noise of any product on the market.

[SEAWOLF97]

Nick
What you are getting from AK are "virtual answers" ..suppositions from those who dont have real world experience with this particular speaker.

Mebbe a better q w/b ..."Attn:250ti owners !! what amps have worked best for you ?"

[Punch]

Nick
What you are getting from AK are "virtual answers" ..suppositions from those who dont have real world experience with this particular speaker.

Mebbe a better q w/b ..."Attn:250ti owners !! what amps have worked best for you ?"

Forget that....I am just going to stick with my LH amigos. I called you Tom....I will try you after 3:00.

[Punch]

Very funny

[BMWCCA]

Crown would rank among the best but I know they will have a bright. edgy character with the JBL's.

From our very limited experience with using one PS400 with Opi's 250s at one point during the second Mid-Atlantic get-together, I'd have to agree. I can't explain why the Crowns sound so good at my house with so many different JBLs over so many decades, but they sounded thin and, yeah, maybe "edgy" and "bright" when hooked up to Opi's system in which he uses three Perreaux amps. We didn't spend a lot of time checking pre-amp settings, etc, and as I recall our routing to integrate the amp may have run it through the Sony HT preamp in use but controlled it with one of my Soundcraftsmen Pro-Control pre-amps, too. Regardless, even if there were pre-existing EQ setting or pre-amp coloration involved, the Crown was not as pleasing on the 250s as the in-house system was, so we didn't listen for very long.

My family can attest to the bi-amp Crowns being anything but "edgy" or "bright" in our house with our 4345s. And I've have no such complaint with any of my seven Crown amps with any of my over-a-dozen JBLs, from 4345s to 030s, but the experience with Opi's system is why I suggested you investigate the Perreaux amps in the first place for your 250tis. :dont-know

[SEAWOLF97]

I can't explain why the Crowns sound so good at my house with so many different JBLs over so many decades, but they sounded thin and, yeah, maybe "edgy" and "bright" when hooked up to Opi's system in which he uses three Perreaux amps.

I suggested you investigate the Perreaux amps in the first place for your 250tis. :dont-know

Wow..I suggested the Crown cause of your crowing...

Seem to recall that the Perreaux amp is based on the BGW design ?

[BMWCCA]

Wow..I suggested the Crown cause of your crowing...

Seem to recall that the Perreaux amp is based on the BGW design ?

Yeah, those Kiwis are just a bunch of copy cats!

As I said, we didn't investigate very far but there was a difference in sound. I can't imagine a more-full sound with the full range covered evenly with no edginess of "clinical" sound than what the pair of Crowns do on my 4345 clones, but then this was in Opi's home, with his 250ti/L/LE upgrades using his system with my Crown plugged in. His amps sounded better. But then Audio Classic's comments seemed specific to the 250Ti and I have no experience with those. I'm sure others here do, so the suggestion to ask the 250ti owners what works for them makes sense.

If I had a pair right now they'd be powered with Crowns and maybe they'd sound different in my system in my home. In the end it really may be just what you're used to, but I run the 4345s bi-amped on "direct" on the SC pre-amp (except at extremely low volume where I may use a Fletcher-Munson EQ curve) and anyone who's heard them has expressed amazement at what they hear from the music, and especially in music they're familiar with.

Maybe it was the speaker cables?