Let's discuss horn preferences

[HenryW]

While I was thoroughly enjoying myself over at the "way off topic" forum, I asked an old forum aquaintance (Maron - whom I was having a minor disagreement with at the moment) what his preference was for the horn to attach to a 2425. I have tested a 2345 and it measured OK, but my ear liked the sound much better when I was about 5 feet beyond where I would be listening to the speaker in my room. My way of stating the problem with the horn was the throw was too long. So finally we have come to my question:

Since medium to long throw is probably wrong for the environment, what do you folks consider your favorite short to medium throw horns that can comfortably be used down to 800 hz or even as low as 400 - 500hz with a compression driver? Please do not limit it to the 1 inchers (althought that best fits my current) but feel free to wander - just the discussion alone should be very educational.

The woodsmith is a darn attractive alternative and the 2344 "Plumber's" cheeks would be the least attractive solution (visually), but your impression of sound and driver combination is what I most want to hear.

[Mr. Widget]

What is the woodsmith you are refering to? Is it the wooden "Smith" horn?

For 2" drivers I really like the 2397. I listen to my Westlake version at about 10' away.

If I were hell bent on using a 1" driver I would probably go with a "Salad Bowl" tractrix horn from Dr. Edgar. See below.

[HenryW]

Yep - 2397 was what I should have said - I have only seen pictures.

I continue to miss catching up with the good doctor, his was my original choice - I was very pleased with one I heard using a 2426.

I saw some of your thoughts on the 2397 - Are you strong in your opinion that it best fits a 2" driver?

[Mr. Widget]

I originally wanted to make a two way with the 2397 and 2421 and 2235H. I tried out the 1" driver on the 2397 and was very disappointed with the sound. The highs were rolled off and the mid range sounded rough. Even with EQ I was dissatisfied. When I used a 2441 and 2405 it was lightyears ahead in quality.

If you would like to try out a pair of 2397s with 2327 and 2328s I could send you a pair if you want to pay shipping both ways... probably not too cheap, but I thought I'd offer.

Widget

[Hofmannhp]

Originally posted by Mr. Widget (edited by HP)
...... I tried out the 1" driver on the 2397 and was very disappointed with the sound. The highs were rolled off and the mid range sounded rough. Even with EQ I was dissatisfied. When I used a 2441 and 2405 it was lightyears ahead in quality.
......Widget

Hi all,

I can confirm Widget......I tried it also some days ago with 2327 and 2421 ......(the difference is like day and night) the 2397 are only top with the 2441.

HP

[linkalley]

i had a pair of 2397 horns. dumbest thing i ever did was sell them. they wre really nice with the tad 4001 drivers. anybody out there want to sell their 2397 horns??? how about the 2328 adapters???
link in ok.land!!

[Robh3606]

Sorry but I'm a plumbers cheeks man Yikes that sounds awful how about I love the Dolly Partons!! Sounds much better. Think of them as sculpture. They are a bit strange looking but they sound real nice. Image very well and don't sound like a horn at all. At least there is no disernable coloration from them. Just clone the comp from the 4430/4435 and you are set.

Rob

[HenryW]

I have some 2404 baby cheeks - I just took the analogy plumber in a wierd play off the 2404. The 2404 will be my Tweeter on this project.

I will trust you folks on the 2397 - I need this to be a good mid and there are too many votes against - thanks widg for the offer, but I think everyone has done a good job of telling me it is not the best use of the horn.

The 2344 is tentative on the specs at 800 hz Rob - do you think it would work fine at that crossover point?

And I didn't mean to seem to diss the 2370 - any thoughts on it?

[Mr. Widget]

I am not a fan of the 2370. I think there are a few others that would concur and some who love it.

HP,

You have both the 2397 and the 2344. I know you listen to a variety of horns for different moods. Could you describe the differences between them. I realize they are not interchangeable nor do they use the same drivers well, but I would be curious of your opinions about them.

Widget

[Robh3606]

Well the spec gives that as the lowest but they don't give you a slope. It loads that low but I wouldn't use it that low but then again I haven't tried it that low either. I like being up at least 1/2 to an octave above the usable low limit at crossover so it doesn't unload on the bottom end. What kind of slopes??? Electronic or passive?? You could try 4 order would probably work better than 2nd order. That said it might work just fine. I use mine at 1.2K crossed from a 2123 10" midrange. I wouldn't mess with trying to integrate a 2404 either. At least not with a 2344. the 2344 will get you up to about 18K or so. Not worth the problems for the last 3k. But that's just me there are a couple of guys that either use that combo or have successfully integrated it. I would be concerned with matching the directivity at crossover with the 2404. A 2344 is a close match. Maybe at say 7K or so you may be able to juggle it but you would have to modify the stock 4430/4435 compensation. Leave out the inductor and juggle the cap value and a parallel resistor. I think a 2370 would definately be better down low but the directivity?? Horizontal may be OK. Vertical not even close. May not be an issue though. You can cross the 2404 low at say 5K-7K and see what the 2370 is doing there. As far as how a 2370 sounds?? Never had the pleasure. The only way to know is try it or clone an existing system. I don't recall all that many JBL systems with a 2404 over a 1" driver. I think most were over a cone midranges or 2" large formats in the Concert Series so the pickins may be slim to find a JBL network as a baseline.

Rob

[Ian Mackenzie]

Henry,

I will try not to be too grung..sorry could not resist.

I assume you already have the 2426 driver.

The issue is then a good near field horn...look no further than the JBL 2344 , if you plan to use a JBL horn.

This driver is limited below even 1000 hertz for any monitor quality, its just too challenged to load up down there.

Rob is spot on, without knowing your woofer setup, the best bet is to get a 2123 or a 2118 mid and mate with a 2344 horn.

The 2397 is more a large format horn for mid field listening and then you have the expense of a 2441 etc.

If you opt for a 2307 you will need to add a 2405 slot.

Beyond that an Edgar horn could be useful.

In summary I am incline to think any close listening with a horn is best done above 1000 hertz with your driver.

Ian.

ps Back to being a grung buster...LOL

[Hofmannhp]

Originally posted by Mr. Widget
....HP,
You have both the 2397 and the 2344. I know you listen to a variety of horns for different moods. Could you describe the differences between them. I realize they are not interchangeable nor do they use the same drivers well, but I would be curious of your opinions about them.
Widget

ok Widget,
I will try to explain what my experiancies are.

The comparision is not perfect, cause I tested the systems not in standing beside each other (the project speakers are in my "living garage" and the 4435 in my living room).

2397/2328/2441:
tested with the project speakers (see early thread).
coupled at 900 Hz to 1. open end and 2. to 8kHz + 2402.
Wide dispersion and very smooth sound over the complete response also in the vertical plane, no horn sound, very honest human voice reality. Without 2402 and 8kHz lowpass there's the want for some eq for additional heights.

2397/2328/2441:
tested with the 4435 instead of the 2344, internal crossover without additional chokes, but with a little damping resistance.
coupled at 1kHz .
Wide dispersion and very smooth sound over the complete response also in the vertical plane, no horn sound, very honest human voice reality. I miss again a little heights, but with eq'ing it's perfect. I like it a little more then the 2344 with the right eq.
For my opinion the original set in the 4435 also needs a little push of 6dB for the UHF. (Widget I can now imagine how your "Westlake-like" cabs with the woodhorn sound.......great)

2397/2328/2327/2420:
tested with my project speakers.
smooth but some ups and down in the 1k to 4kHz section, good heights only in the axis spot. Again missing the 2405.


2309/2310/2441:
tested with the project speakers
Nearly as smooth as the 2397, but a little more mid sound (can easy be eq'ued) horizontal dispersion is fine, also as the vertical. Sameefficiency as the 2395 but needs also a 2402/2405.

2395/2441:
tested with the project speakers.
A little heavy mids between 800 and 1.5kHz but also smooth with a wide horizontal dispersion (no wonder with a 36" lens). a little more efficiency against the 2397 but a critical vertical dispersion with differencies between sit down and stand up. Also needs a 2402/2405. When using the 2402 +4dB eq for the heights is fine.

SHORT:
for living room, my vote is for the 2397/2441 + 2405. I like this a little more then the 2344/2427 as I wrote above. I think that also the original setup of the 4435 will get a little nearer to my taste with +6dB L-pad or an uhf driver.
For larger audits I like the 2309/2310 also as the 2395 (this looks so brutal nice) both carefully eq'ed and with 2405. Therefore I think about to add a switch in the crossovers for this driver and horn combos.

HP

[HenryW]

Thanks so much to all for the thoughtful and experienced responses.

HP - your review will be printed for further look see - great stuff.

I have mentioned it here before, but here is what I will start with:

2225 (reconed 2205)
2425
2404

LF crossover is 3110 and HF crossover is 3105.

I have modeled the bass box and (Lo and behold) WinISD, Box Plot and Unibox all give me something akin to the JBL recommended enclosure. The horn section will be separate on top of the bass box and will house the crossovers as well. This gives me a bunch of freedom in tweeking the crossover and changing horns and drivers. Looks like a bunch of folks will tell me I shorted myself with the one inch mid and if I want this type of config I should go with a 2 inch - that option will remain available. I want the low freq to cross at 800hz (or nearby) due to the usable upper limit of the woofer being about 1200hz. A fourth order does seem a decent fit with a fairly extreme slope.

My intent is to build then measure and see what I have to do with Xover tweaking. I may find that the Xover points don't match my ear and head out shopping again (I treat this like a disease - I hide the purchases from my family, lie and say things were given to me and repeatedly say to the therapist that I am not near as bad as my friends - we need a twelve step program). Something stuck in the back of my head tells me I am close with this config, but the mids keep getting a soft thumbs down.

Good stuff here folks. With Giskard and others previous help I am beginning wood selection - I am thinking Cherry with Mahagony accents but could go Baltic Birch with cherry accents.

[Hofmannhp]

Originally posted by HenryW (edited by HP)
......I have mentioned it here before, but here is what I will start with:
2225 (reconed 2205)
2425
2404
LF crossover is 3110 and HF crossover is 3105.
.

thanks for your kind words Henry,

..no one said that a 1" driver like the 2425 is a bad driver.
the system your'e thinking about is very near to one of my oldest system in use.

In 1980 I filled two Altec Valencia cabs with 2205H (new in this time) 2420, 2370 with DIY lens and 2405 added a DIY crossover and had (have) a very nice sounding system, which I frequently used for disco. The 2205 woofers aren't that bad for this cause they have a very dry and fast pulse answer instead of the deep res softedge woofers. Never cooked a speaker in this cabs working over 10 or more hours with extremly high level. They sound as good today and are lightly compact.

Try it with the above stated fine systems, figure out a good crossver and relaxe.


HP

[Maron Horonzakz]

My first encounter with a wood SMITH horn was over 25 yrs ago. A friend of Paul KLipsch...George Ashworth had made his own Smith horns to sit on top of a Klipshorn. The unit was quite large about 30 wide. With a cut off of about 180hz . The driver was a JBL 375. He also had a smaller Smith horn sitting on top . A 1" version to use with smaller driver of that time. Thats how I got the Idea to incorperate a tiny Smith horn to sit on top of my JBL 2397. But you have to make your own coupling adapter to driver for the 1" smaller horn. On the larger Smith horn George was messing not only with 375 but also 2482 type phenolic diaphrams to xover at 300hz. Yes you can comfortably use these in your living room without being blown out of the house. very pleasing sound with very good dispersion....George was a MONO man. didnt think stereo would amount to mutch He had one unit upstairs & the other downstairs.