Yet More Capacitors

[Guido]

I use Intertechnik Audyn Cap Plus for the HF section of my 4343 and I really like them.
I can get discount on them. PM me if you interested in a price list.

This is the review from an link in an earlier post.

Technical Specifications:These low loss capacitors have been developed for extreme impulse/power handling. An important design/constructional feature is the power handling of the connection between the foils (electrodes) and the end. The Audyn Cap Plus has a vastly improved system of connecting the electrodes to the end leads. Audyn Cap Plus also utilizes an internal series connection system whereby layers of metal foil are combined with a one-side metallized "blind" layer. As a result of the double metallization performance is greatly enhanced. Dielectric: Polypropylene Winding: Induction free: 2 windings series connected Layers: Vacuum metallized Body: Aluminium, Synthetic material (plastic). Rather highly priced cap.



Sound: The Audyn Cap Plus is a true high-end capacitor! They sound a bit hard at first and have a sort of midrange haze because they take a while to burn-in. But after a few days of normal use they deliver a very spatial sound with lots of depth that only gets better as time passes. Perfect reproduction of the finest musical nuances. Furthermore, the effect is not only achieved with very expensive high-end components. It delivers a significant enhancement in more price-conscious configurations, making it a very worthwhile upgrade even though it is rather expensive. Clarity, depth, detail and openness from top to bottom! When I first switched over to these I thought, “this is it!” even though they were fresh from the shelf. They sound a little more mid-range forward compared to the equally good Mundorf Supreme Cap. Although they are expensive, the degree of improvement is a value compared to the cost of high-end cables and interconnects.

[gerard]

Guido

Did you try also audiocap ppt ( a lot of test says it's the best caps ...) ?

gerard

[gerard]

Guido

What do you think of this link :http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/DI...ages/3545.html

about jupiter ?

gerard

[Guido]

Sorry for late reply Gerard. I'm on a business trip.

Yes, maybe the Audyn plus caps can sound analytical. But I use them with only with my 2405 and there I like that sound!

For the other parts of the network I use Audyn KPQS + MKP Bypass + MKT Bypass and like them alot!

[B&KMan]

Hello great community JBL
(sorry for my poor english)

I'M join with this tread because it is center target of manys questions...

1--- historic
after a couple of days in darks on read the crazy world of capacitor in this forum, I ask a question into this group for the selection of capacitor and tips for reuild my crossover 3143

If my comprehension of capacitor is good; the type of capacitor affect the result response in transient and put more "coloration" or add a signature in sound.. This signature is more relevant
if I compare the type of soldering or cable...
right ??

I have a 4343 studio monitor JBL
but after check carrefully speaker, many problem occur...
Driver reconning by third part product,
invert phase and polarity in connection and
wrong interpretation in color code for drivers connection to network crossover...
I realize the time integration of the UHF 2405 is not good (see other tread forum)


and finnaly final step my cross over appear old and many part is corroded, switch, L pad,...

So I realize the potential of speaker is limited by this point.

Well of course I open mind in manys experience and recommendation of this forum. But just start a new controverse...

===========
If the capacitor is relative hard signature, the JBL team is recognize this and choice the type of capacitor in regards of the sighature of driver and best "team work in all componant.

So I recognize the old capacitor (30 years) is dry and not respond well fast or well stable as new but why change the nature of capacitor ???

If JBL team recognize a special selection for one realisation (exemple) so why change the signature of capacitor if you like JBL Sound Signature ??? . Why do not just keep the same type but better degree of precision ???

And for start a new controversy: I know many componants change signature response after burn-in and many extreme company, nagra, Bruel & kjaer, FM acoustic and Accuphase (for name of couple) burn-in many part before mesure and classifie parts...

in other hand, if it shure a capacitor with no roddage is sound hard harch and metal but after a real burn it is smoothing, deaper and open ...

===========

By the way I look a couples of Big home state crossover with very hight level of components, flat coil, high end caps, mil resitance, ...

[Zilch]

If "Signature Sound" relies on the capacitors JBL used 30 years ago, it is a BAD sound, indeed.

And I can assure you, NONE of it is a matter of the type of solder or cables used....

[B&KMan]

Well,
It very short response...

Well, actually the JBL is produce a Famous JBL S9800 and I suppose the capacitor network is shure better but probably in relation in tradition of JBL Sound...

30 years ago this speaker is famous too and it is a reflet of the level of the history technology... So the capacitor is realy bad in famous speaker ???

Of course, now the original cone kit is corroded and uncentered and dust and deformed so the sound really bad but just put a fresh cone and Voilà !!! Why do not apply the same principe in capacitor???

why change JBL receipt cook signature??? why not just refresh for accurate???

the JBL parts is actually too cheap in regards of the market offert in specialized capacitor ???

[Ian Mackenzie]

I like B & K Mans point's, he raises some interesting issues.

Giskard has previously posted about the JBL selected parts.

At the moment I am working on developing a project to upgrade the 4343 in several levels with Ed. This will include the crossover, electrical contacts, enclosure bracing and upgrade to 4344 components. There is also the option of building an external crossover box which will bypass the original crossover incl Pads (while leaving the system in vintage conditon should the owner desire this).

We plan to publish the project soon enough.

The sum of the whole will offer greater musical satisfaction than focus on one specific area.

Interestingly enough, poor sound or perhaps a deterioration over a priod of time is often the result of poor cable terminations. I am sure most of us have had this problem with a car battery. Imagine what your poor old speaker is trying to do if the terminals are bad..it is a motor after all.

The connections should be cleaned of any oxide and be a secure tight fit with adequate capacity for the current to flow. Cables should be short and heavy gauge copper. Avoid hi end cables with termination boxes, these cables may make your amplifier unstable by introducing reactance.

Ian

[hector.murray]

from EarlK earlier:

( point being ; more people need to "get a grip" on the available topologies for reducing distortions from capacitors )

The topologies are cost effective & don't require "Boutique Caps" to work .

I add to that the referance for recapping the crossover. the cost is astronomical.
It's hard to analayze this data - the technical reproduction vs what is heard - as that is pretty subjective.
I wonder if there is a way to analyze the "trueness" (if you will) or faithfullness of a reproduction. With the current level of technology available, to compare the output of an amp to the output of a crossover to see if one cap is more faithfull than another. Something using high sample rates that could not only perform simple sine wave comparison, but spectral analyses of a range with a broad spectrum input.

For example:
Method A - input a broad spectrum midrange signal for a given crossover, say 1.2k to 4k or 6k, into an amp and do a 2 channel comparison. Channel 1 the output of the amp and channel 2 the output of the midrange ( it is a given that this is a 3 or 4 way crossover - but I think you get the idea) of the crossover.
I apologise in advance if this seems too simplistic a view.
Or it could be that NASA needs to be comissioned to do this as they are the only ones with the equipment for this type of analysis, but somehow I doubt that.
Then again, this does not take into account what we hear as that is subjective info.
If I'm way off base here, someone tell me.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Yet another spin is that the transducers will only sound as pure and clean as what's coming from upstream.

Lesser quality capacitors like mylars have significant dieletric absorbtion (D/A), this has the effect of smoothing and filtering very fine transient information and all other micro level noise and other by products like 3rd harmonic distortion. This makes the speaker more tolorant of the source.

Therefore, upgrading to higher resolution capacitors will only be as rewarding as the quality of the source. If you have mass mid market Cd player and amp, the results will be different, but not necesarily better.

I think this is the problem for many so called audiophile tweakers. These expensive tweaks are really a work around and only make a change and people become confused about what real improvement means. Hence they continue to spend $$ on tweaks rather than spending money more wisely like on a better cartridge or pre amplifier.

A good measure is long term listening pleasure and whether you feel the desire to continue to make improvements. If you feel this way, as a friend to come over and assist with assessing your system. Swap your source or other components and then make a well informed decision about your future investment.

This tends to prevent or minimise long,hardened and often religious ideologies about equipment.

Just my 2 cent worth, but practical experience tends to support the above.

Ian

[Ian Mackenzie]

( point being ; more people need to "get a grip" on the available topologies for reducing distortions from capacitors )

The topologies are cost effective & don't require "Boutique Caps" to work .





Obviously it works....but can you make a silk purse out of a sours ear....I am skeptical.

I note that JBL also bi passed these capacitors with small value higher quality types, that suggests the this is still necessary for improved performance.

Why not spend top dollar on you tweeters and horns where only small values are required?

It would be interesting to arrange on proper qualitative analysis from a panel of golden ear audiophiles on their preferences for charge coupling and so called boutique capacitors.

I am inclined to think charge coupling (other wise known as biasing) is an engineers solution to economic rationalism where certain commerical boundaries exist.

[Earl K]

Why not spend top dollar on you tweeters and horns where only small values are required?

- Yep ,that always makes a lot of sense to me .

It would be interesting to arrange on proper qualitative analysis from a panel of golden ear audiophiles on their preferences for charge coupling and so called boutique capacitors.

- Well. I used to trust the U.N. Then there was Rawanda .

I am inclined to think charge coupling (other wise known as biasing) is an engineers solution to economic rationalism where certain commerical boundaries exist.

- I believe there is a lot of truth behind that statement .

- I'll take it even further. My hunch is that "lesser" capacitors & even "lesser" system electronics will benefit the most from this treatment. Since a lot of my stuff does fall into the "lesser" category / I get big bang for the buck from biasing & bipassing . Class A stuff will likely benefit the least from these topologies ( I haven't explored this thought becuase I lack the necessary funds ) . Since I'm pretty stuck on using efficient ( think PA, class AB ) amp topologies ( & thus keeping the heat & electrical bill down ) / the cost savings and quality increase are quite real ( even staggering ) .

[4313B]

I am inclined to think charge coupling (other wise known as biasing) is an engineers solution to economic rationalism where certain commerical boundaries exist.

From various conversations I'm inclined to believe Solen and RelCap are the most expensive caps ever tried at JBL. I could be wrong, but that is definitely the impression I've gotten. I can't imagine a scenario in which they decided something like "Solen caps biased will give us the same level of performance as <insert favorite megabuck cap here> caps unbiased for much less money". I don't think <insert favorite megabuck cap here> caps were ever evaluated. The scenario I envision is "Check out how these caps (metallized mylars and polypropylenes) sound when we bias them!" followed by "Holy Hand Grenade Batman!".

It would be interesting to arrange on proper qualitative analysis from a panel of golden ear audiophiles on their preferences for charge coupling and so called boutique capacitors.

Definitely!

I note that JBL also bi passed these capacitors with small value higher quality types, that suggests the this is still necessary for improved performance.

I've run into the same scenario. The cheap Dayton (Bennic) MM caps seem to still need the bypass caps whereas the Solen MM caps don't. I've yet to compare all three together - biased and bypassed Daytons, biased Solens and unbiased SoniCaps. I was going to try that with the XPL250's.

[Robh3606]

The scenario I envision is "Check out how these caps (metallized mylars and polypropylenes) sound when we bias them!"

I would think so too. I was surprised that non polorized electrolytics were still in the mix. I wonder if the biased Solen networks have the mylar/polyprolylene swaped out and the electrolytics replaced or just the mylars/polypropylene with the larger values still NPE's.

Look at the progression

Mylar and NPE Generic

Mylar and NPE with Polypropylene Generic

Mylar and NPE with Polypropylene and Polystyrene XPL-200

Mylar and NPE with Polypropylene Charge Coupled with Polypropylene and Polystyrene used as bypass where sections were not CC 3100

Mylar and NPE with Polypropylene CC all sections 9800

New Solen Networks?????

Rob

[Ian Mackenzie]

- Yep ,that always makes a lot of sense to me .



- Well. I used to trust the U.N. Then there was Rawanda .



- I believe there is a lot of truth behind that statement .

Class A stuff will likely benefit the least from these topologies ( I haven't explored this thought I lack the necessary funds ) . Since I'm pretty stuck on using efficient ( think PA, class AB ) amp topologies ( & thus keeping the heat & electrical bill down ) / the cost savings and quality increase are quite real ( even staggering ) .

Surely you would benefit from class A foot warmers in your COLD Canadian Polar Winter and your heating Bill will be the same but sound nicer when it arrives...

Ian