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Thread: ...ever get an ice pick to the forehead?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertbartsch View Post
    In a recent conversation of knowledgable folk on another forum, one person described the sound from compression drivers with titanium diaphragms as the classic ice pick to the forehead sound.

    I never really found them to be harsh or outwardly forward but I suppose I enjoy horns in general but I beleive many do not.

    ...anyway, I suppose this is an amusing description by one who does not.
    I guess I really don't understand the point of this thread. We've been over the various diaphragms and why they exist in lurid detail.

    What I've learned is that everyone thinks the aluminum diaphragms sound better until they have to put out $568 for a pair of new ones. Then they suddenly think titanium at $276 a pair sound just as good.

    I won't even bring up the magnesiums or berylliums because they aren't sold at Walmart.

    The aquaplased titanium diaphragms are perfectly fine for 99.99999% of consumers, especially after you tell them the price of moving up. That's just the way it is.

    And JBL's number one selling large format Studio Monitors of all time ran titanium diaphragms without aquaplas... which means that anyone who thinks they suck should probably look at the rest of the JUNK in their audio chain first...

  2. #17
    Senior Member Tom Brennan's Avatar
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    Titanium sounds good to me, I used to use 2426s on Edgar saladbowls and Altec 1005s and recently used CS-3115s which use 2426s (and coexisted in the same house with two sets of Altecs with aluminum diaphragms).

  3. #18
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    A lot of it, also, is attempting to use contouring to get top octave response out of the Ti diaphragms. The 2426 is well-damped (moreso than most Ti compression drivers, anyway), but the breakup is in the top octave, so when a design tries to squeeze that last bit of extension, they're doing so by operating it in breakup mode. I'm working on some Oblate Spheroid waveguides for them, but will use a small supertweeter to get the content above 10k, and simply accept the lobing, perhaps even rear facing as an 'ambience' tweeter.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by old guy View Post
    Spot on...best sounding system in the world is useless if it doesn't survive the gig...

    But I still use aluminum at home...again just my preference...

    I think forming titanium cheaply didn't come about till the 70's or it would have been used before...I suspect engineers were checking it out way earlier...

    Some amazing things have never made it out of the back rooms...sadly many experiments were just destroyed or dismantled...companies didn't want competitors to see them...
    BTW Old Guy (with that name you'll fit right in here!),

    Welcome to Lansing Heritage! Hope you'll share what JBL's you have and how you're using them. As you can see, we're all passionate like you are about JBL's products and legacy. Hiope you enjoy the discussions.

    Bart
    When faced with another JBL find, Good mech986 says , JBL Fan mech986 says

  5. #20
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    Forgot to add that most of the Ti being used in the 70's was for aerospace and military applications. As forming technology and experience became more widespread and known, Ti became somewhat more of an option. Couple that with the winding down of the Vietnam War and downturn in the aerospace industry, Ti prices came down and Ti experienced suppliers and companies needed to diversify their business. Granted, the amount of Ti JBL uses in a year probably would supply a few Boeing 777 wing spars.

    I even remember a Titanium based Can-Am sports car call the AutoCoast Ti-22 (periodic number) that raced in 1970-72. Of course, most all racers used titanium extensively till they could afford to go to carbon fiber.

    Hmmm, carbon fiber compression domes. Have seen that in woofer cones but I suspect too brittle for domes and probably too heavy in the thicknessess needed.
    When faced with another JBL find, Good mech986 says , JBL Fan mech986 says

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mech986 View Post

    Hmmm, carbon fiber compression domes. Have seen that in woofer cones but I suspect too brittle for domes and probably too heavy in the thicknessess needed.
    Interesting idea...it would have to be super thin to be light enough, wonder what breakup mode would be like?

    Perhaps some sort of "sandwich" a thin carbon fiber fram coated with an ultra thin layer of metal..a lot of things can be done with vapor deposition...I would bet somebody has already tried it or is trying it...

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Brennan View Post
    sounds good to me
    The ideal end point to any discussion

    The user is always the final authority on where his money goes...except in my case...I have the government and a girlfriend...

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by old guy View Post
    Interesting idea...it would have to be super thin to be light enough, wonder what breakup mode would be like?

    Perhaps some sort of "sandwich" a thin carbon fiber fram coated with an ultra thin layer of metal..a lot of things can be done with vapor deposition...I would bet somebody has already tried it or is trying it...
    JBL tried that with the 066 tweeter - aluminum vapor deposition over linen/phenolic dome for the L166/L212/4411. That was over 20 years ago! I suspect the process could be much improved if it was deemed useful enough to re-engineer (and cost effective).

    See write-up here:

    http://www.lansingheritage.org/image...l166/page2.jpg
    When faced with another JBL find, Good mech986 says , JBL Fan mech986 says

  9. #24
    Senior Member brutal's Avatar
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    It's hopeless for me to grasp this thread because as soon as I saw "icepick to the forehead," I thought Frank Zappa and can't get it outta my head.

    LOL


  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by badman View Post
    A lot of it, also, is attempting to use contouring to get top octave response out of the Ti diaphragms. The 2426 is well-damped (moreso than most Ti compression drivers, anyway), but the breakup is in the top octave, so when a design tries to squeeze that last bit of extension, they're doing so by operating it in breakup mode. I'm working on some Oblate Spheroid waveguides for them, but will use a small supertweeter to get the content above 10k, and simply accept the lobing, perhaps even rear facing as an 'ambience' tweeter.

    And this is what I think I hear in the 4430s that I don't get out of the L200/300s. (Or maybe it's that ferrite magnet as opposed to the AlNiCo, and/or a combination.) I imagine this becomes moot when the 2425 is used in a 3-way system.

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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mech986 View Post
    JBL tried that with the 066 tweeter - aluminum vapor deposition over linen/phenolic dome for the L166/L212/4411. That was over 20 years ago! I suspect the process could be much improved if it was deemed useful enough to re-engineer (and cost effective).
    Much of the advanced technology of today is just materials making it possible to implement ideas from a long time ago...I can't help but think how much was lost though...

    I LIKE to see crazy ideas, whether they worked or not...the stealth bomber is a case in point...much of the technology was laid down in the 1940's at Northrop with the flying wings....and still never declassified...but the aircraft were unflyable with mechanical controls...

    It took computers to make them airworthy...

  13. #28
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    ...ever get an ice pick to the forehead?
    Only when I listen to "Fembot in a wet T shirt"


    Titanium sounds OK to me. Even the uncoated versions in the Ti series, L series, 4200's, 4400's, XPL ect.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  14. #29
    Senior Member LowPhreak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Only when I listen to "Fembot in a wet T shirt"







    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Titanium sounds OK to me. Even the uncoated versions in the Ti series, L series, 4200's, 4400's, XPL ect.

    Rob

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by old guy View Post
    I an a retired Pro sound engineer... I look forward to sharing and learning.
    Tell us more about that career? It's nice to have someone with that experience here - many questions come up.

    And, sorry about your illness. That is no fun. For over a decade in my youth, my mom drove patients to get treatment(s) - we saw it all. It is hard work, that...
    bo

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