JBL SR system for a 20K sized arena

[jcrobso]

I had enough time to hear 3 different bands at 3 different stages. The sound was GOOD! The main stages had big stacks with very big subs, not sure of the brands none of the speakers no logos on them. I was about 60' away and the bass was pounding on my chest, so I decided not to get any closer.
The third band was on the street, no stage, just their own amps that were miked and 4 of what looked like JBL SRX715. I was about 25' from the speakers and really liked the sound of the JBLs.
The fact that this is outdoors and there are no room reflections to mess up the sound helps. I like running outdoor sound, until it rains then it is not so much fun. John

[Andyoz]

I can't remember the last big gig I went to where the snare actually sounded like a snare and the kick drum sounded like a kick drum. Bands seem to be scared not to add a load of effects to the sound of drum kits.

It's game over after that IMO.

[4343]

One other thought.

Clapton/Winwood did an acoustic set lasting about 15 minutes. The sound was very good - no muddled vocals, clear sound with good dynamic range.

What conclusions could you draw from this?

1. The sound system may have been capable but the hall's acoustic properties likely destroyed non-acoustic electric instruments for a full 7 piece band playing full out rock tunes?

2. Acoustic lower SPL music material is easy to reproduce even with over stressed systems in crappy hallz?

3. Nothing?

I've seen exactly what you describe in 1.

One time I was asked to listen to "The Problem" at a friends church. The first act was the lead singer from Blues Image (Mike Pinera?) singing solo to his new CD-minus-vocal-track (Karaoke?). All the sound came from two PA speakers and sounded fantastic. Next up a full band with Bass, Drums, Percussion, Keyboards, two Guitars, and 4 of them singing. The volume was only slightly higher than the "Solo" singer, but the result of all the instruments playing together from different locations on the stage was just awful... Unintelligible vocals, muddy bass, etc. The acoustics of the room were just way too live!

I had them get an acoustic consultant in, and the next time I saw that room, it had been redone with bass traps and such and sounded great. Good enough that we recorded a bunch of blues tracks live that sound pretty good.

My bet is on the SPL limit being set by the venue. And way too much compression/hard limiting to make sure of that limit. Stage sound may have had a hand in it as well, but I doubt it.

[boputnam]

Eeek... One at a time...

OK, my wife and I went to the Izod arena in Meadowlands NJ...

Key word: Arena. Sound will be a struggle no matter how good the engineers. Steve Schell touched on it, but the acoustics of these halls were not even considered in their build - they are for sports, with an arena-center omni cluster to all seats. No-one considered an end-zone staging with PA and the related acoustic conflicts.

...the sound system consisted of six columns of cabs that were stacked above the stage...

you mean, flown? Or stage stacked? That would be very unusual.

From what I know, JBL has an exclusive with Clapton - Vertec. Period. Oldmics, smarter than me, would know for sure. Vertecs are a fine cabinet. This was not a system problem, IMO.

If I had to guess, I would assume the maximum volume was around 95db, I suppose.

I love that engineer. My goal is the same. The past month, I've had lauds from fans and house management alike, thanking me for that SPL and an intelligible mix. But I'm a smallfry - this is clubs not arenas. I saw the Dead in Pepsi Center, Denver. Sound was gawdawful, but not loud. We, as a group, need to motivate the artists out of arenas, where slaves were eaten by lions, and into properly fitted theatres.

Sorry to get the news about one of my favorite artists sounding poorly

Mics, I believe you know, that was not the problem.

Large venues like that which are sports oriented usually result in exhibiting poor musical reinforcement preformances.

+1

Although mixing at 95 db all nite long would be nice.

It's actually, killer. But, it is astonishingly difficult to achieve, and not readily accepted (yet) by all.

Clapton/Winwood did an accustic set lasting about 15 minutes. The sound was very good - no muddled vocals, clear sound with good dynamic range.

Lesser SPL overall excites the arena less. Less reverberation = less struggle. However, once the entire ensemble hit, there is no-way the FOH engineer can be expected to contain all that and present a reverberation-free mix - the hall argues with him all night long.

I don't go to large gigs anymore.

I don't do arena gigs. I can count all of those on one hand. That is an easy decision.

What you are all frustrated with is arena acoustics. They had the best artist, best engineers, excellent system, and yet it sucked. Thankfully, FOH guys are getting the message and the SPL was low risk. That alone is very farout. However, no arena show will ever be as acoustically satisfying as a proper theatre venue, nor something out-of-doors.

[Fred Sanford]

Spoke with a singer from one of my old bands last night, he's very used to having PAs set up by me or my old PA partner. He saw the Clapton/Winwood show in NJ, and without my prompting said almost exactly the same things - murky vocals with the full band, great sounding acoustic set. He also said it was "essentially a hockey rink", and knew it was a challenge.

je

[robertbartsch]

Fred:
I knew I was not alone in judging the Izod Arena sound as poor - THX.

Although I have not been to Izod before, I have enjoyed many good sound systems in large 10K - 20K halls so I'm guessing accustic properties of the hall are important. Frankly, the 7 or 8 times I've been to NY Garden over many years the sound always suked so there must be something to the big-is-bad idea.

As a CPA, my analysis is, at an average ticket price of $100, the Clapton/Winwood show probably grossed $2.5 million (20K sports seats, + 5K seats on the arena floor) After paying the hall, security, sound rental, engineer, roadies, Ticketmaster, etc. the net profit probably was way below $1 million.

I would assume the $ net on a small forum of less than 5K seats would be a break even proposition at best. So, as a performer, why bother if incremental record/CD sales from a gig are near zero?

[grumpy]

...joy of playing for a receptive audience?

Just saw Jon Anderson (Yes) at what was essentially a beer hall near
Pismo Beach... maybe 200 attended. It was also his wife's birthday.
Made for a very pleasant experience, and it seemed that Jon was
enjoying the time as well.

[Andyoz]

As a CPA, my analysis is, at an average ticket price of $100, the Clapton/Winwood show probably grossed $2.5 million (20K sports seats, + 5K seats on the arena floor) After paying the hall, security, sound rental, engineer, roadies, Ticketmaster, etc. the net profit probably was way below $1 million.

I would assume the $ net on a small forum of less than 5K seats would be a break even proposition at best. So, as a performer, why bother if incremental record/CD sales from a gig are near zero?

The ideal number is around 15,000 people. That allows good sight lines and good sound if properly treated. That is what the industry is demanding worldwide so expect to see alot of new 15-20k multi-purpose venues appearing.

Venues with capacities less than that will struggle to get ther top artists as they will go elsewhere.

[John]

We have a new hockey arena in town for about 3-4 years that seats 15000 for a game. When they designed the arena it was built with the knowledge that to make it profitable they needed to keep it booked for more than about 40 games a year the hockey team would be using it. So they paid attention to the acoustics. Lots of baffles and curtains everywhere.
I have seen about 30 shows in the place including Eric Clapton about 2 years ago. I have always been on the floor within the first 10 rows near center and the sound has always been great to near CD quality. Just saw Leonard Cohen in April and the sound was fantastic as well. One show did have a bit of a blurry sound and that was Pearl Jam, But the tickets were free and so no loss.

Also I caught Def Leopard in this building. They had JBL vertic's and about the same set up as descibed at the start of this thread. 2 hour show. First 60 min. were nice and loud. Next 30 min's was kind of nuts and then the last 30 min's was a encore and the volume was insane. I inserted my ear plugs but the slam on my chest was crazy and I could feel my hair on my head vibrating or maybe that was ripples in the fluid around my brain. Make no mistake these systems can crank louder than stuff from the 70,s and do so without damage, except to the listeners.

[Titanium Dome]

Make no mistake these systems can crank louder than stuff from the 70,s and do so without damage, except to the listeners.

That's quite a testimony there, and one I can attest to.

[JohanR]

I don't go to large gigs anymore. There is something just no quite right about the sound I'm hearing. There are issues with the midrange (snares sound weird now) and the bass is generally a disaster. the intent appears to be move loads of air but forget about tuneful bass where you can hear the bass guitar wire slap, etc.

When I went to see bands like Queen and Springsteen in the late 1970's I remember reflecting how good it sounded. Never happens today, it's better to insert the earplugs right before they start...

But it's not just big venues that tend to sound bad. I was at a show with a comedian that was supported by a jazz trio. This was at a proper concert hall, but it didn't stop them miking it out and making it sound really dreadful!

JohanR

[Andyoz]

But it's not just big venues that tend to sound bad. I was at a show with a comedian that was supported by a jazz trio. This was at a proper concert hall, but it didn't stop them miking it out and making it sound really dreadful!

JohanR

The thing I hate about alot of smaller venues is the sound engineer seems to foget there is a band on stage! The PA system is run so loud that there is no connection between what is happening on the stage and what is coming from the PA. It's more like listening to a band playing alon got pre-recorded track by the time the singal passes through all their effects.

What's so wrong with hearing a bit of the "natural" snare drum from the stage...?

[robertbartsch]

Until recently, all the shows I attended had stage amps - Fenders, Marsalls, Ampeg, etc.

What happended to these recently? All I see on the stage are floor monitors?

[jcrobso]

The venue was a new Church that was designed as a multimedia venue.
The Church seats about 4000~5000 in the western Chicago suburbs.
I usually try to sit close to the FOH engineer, I figure that I way I will hear what he hears. The sounds was good with the live band that was playing, I could understand the vocals. The speakers were 3 clusters that were flown, the ceiling area very dark and could not see any logos on the speakers.

The artists were Phil Keggy and Randy Stonehill both are long time Christian artists. Phil Keggy's guitar playing is easily on par with Clapton and other will known guitarists. I really enjoyed hearing both of them play again.

[CONVERGENCE]

Until recently, all the shows I attended had stage amps - Fenders, Marsalls, Ampeg, etc.

What happended to these recently? All I see on the stage are floor monitors?

Most big performers still use them. But for practical applications when televised broadcast is invloved with many performers DI boxes have been used since the mid eighties.

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