JBL SR system for a 20K sized arena

[robertbartsch]

OK, my wife and I went to the Izod arena in Meadowlands NJ to see Eric Clapton and Steve Winwood perform last night.

I believe this is a 20,000 seat forum and it has a high roof. Anyway, the sound system consisted of six columns of cabs that were stacked above the stage - 14 cabs for each column (84 cabs total). From what I could tell, each cab contained two LF woofers - probably 15s and a large format compression driver and horn.

From what I gather from recent concerts, this is now a fairly typical system for this sized forum.

Well the sound for the first hour was very marginal - just not enough volume or dynamic range and the vocals were muddy. During the remaining 1.5 hours the system performed slightly better, however. If I had to guess, I would assume the maximum volume was around 95db, I suppose.

On a scale of 1-10, I would rate this system about a 3. Many concerts of 30 years or so ago had sound systems that I would rate as 8 or 9, compared to this.

I assume this shortfall is a consequence of trying to minimuze costs/shipping and transport to maximize profits.

[Titanium Dome]

On a scale of 1-10, I would rate this system about a 3. Many concerts of 30 years or so ago had sound systems that I would rate as 8 or 9, compared to this.

Was there anything else different 30 years ago?

[hjames]

Was there anything else different 30 years ago?

For me, I stopped going to shows in sports arenas ...
the hard surfaces and less than optimal seating meant I wasn't really going to enjoy the show anyway ...

Back inna day, paying $20-30 to see a band I liked in an BB arena or similar was worth it ...

For $150 and up, nah, not gonna happen ...

These days, if its not a smaller venue, I won't be there ...

[robertbartsch]

Dome:
Good question that I have been thinking about since last year in the NY Garden when we saw the Eagles who had a similarily marginal sound system.

I'm not knowledgeable about big stage sound systems but I guess I would list these obvious things as possible differences:

Old concert sound systems - say 30-40 years ago:

1. Much more equipment for similar sized events, probably on the order of 3X compared with the Izod arena or NY Garden.

2. The LF drivers were always loaded in large bass cabs.

3. The systems were arranged in pairs, typically at stage level and on each side of the stage - NOT hung from cables very high above the stage. In larger forums, additional speakers had often been located away from the stage - in the back or sides of the arena.

4. The power amps, typically several dozen Crown DC300s were often placed on the stage in back of each speaker system. I assume modern stacked cabs have power amps built in or are driven by amps that are far away.

5. Nearly every old system was played loud enough to result in ringing in the ears for a day or two, so I am sure the SPLs were much much much higher than today. Some of the higher end systems of the day included Deep Purple, Robin Trower, Zep, Flyod)

6. Instead of 4 or 5 - 18 wheeler trucks in the forum parking lot, you would see a dozen or so.

[Oldmics]

Robert
Sorry to get the news about one of my favorite artists sounding poorly

Large venues like that which are sports oriented usually result in exhibiting poor musical reinforcement preformances.

Todays best bet for large attendance good sounding events are outdoor festival situations.Unfortunatly festival situations sometimes exhibit other issues that are less than desirable.

I dont know who the provided is for that tour.Certainly one of the "biggies".

There may have been a volume constraint imposed at the F.O.H. by manangement resulting in a situation of the volume you precieved.

Although mixing at 95 db all nite long would be nice.

The only thing that I can say for sure is 84 boxs would be enough to blow the walls down almost anywhere so it certainly could have been run louder.

These days when I have a need to see an artist (rarely) I"ll make a call and sit in monitor world and just hear the stage volume.

This way I dont have to critique the P.A. or mix.

Oldmics

[Mr. Widget]

Well the sound for the first hour was very marginal - just not enough volume or dynamic range and the vocals were muddy. During the remaining 1.5 hours the system performed slightly better, however. If I had to guess, I would assume the maximum volume was around 95db, I suppose.

Now that's unusual! Not the fact that the sound was mediocre, but the fact that it wasn't ear splitting loud... virtually every show I see these days is simply crazy loud. I like loud, for a few minutes to make a point or add drama, but two hours of head pounding isn't my idea of fun. 95dB sounds pretty good to me.


Widget

[Titanium Dome]

5. Nearly every old system was played loud enough to result in ringing in the ears for a day or two, so I am sure the SPLs were much much much higher than today. Some of the higher end systems of the day included Deep Purple,

Amen to that, brother. I've heard DP a dozen times over the years, and it's a miracle I can still hear. I sorta remember climbing in front of the towers once before security got me. I still have a chunk of Blackmore's guitar from that concert.

My ears would ring for at least two days.

[Mr. Widget]

My ears would ring for at least two days.

...and that's a good thing? No wonder all of you guys are now deaf.

Seriously though, modern flown systems with a wall of subs at the base of the stage are capable of bandwidth and SPLs that even The Who and Deep Purple would have envied. The new systems are much lighter in tonnage than the old school designs, but because of smarter design they have the horsepower and ability to deliver it like never before.


Widget

[Andyoz]

Funny, but no one has mentioned how the signal chain feeding these FOH rigs has changed in the last 30 years.

I sometiomes wonder with the advent of the all digital signal paths, if sound engineers are getting a bit lazy and assuming that because it's digital, it will handle more abuse than analogue gear.

I heard a nice story from one of Ireland's top sound engineers engineers recently. He was on tour with a band that just couldn't afford the latest digital mixers, etc. So he pulled an analogue Midas XL4 out for the gigs and kept a nice tight analgue signal chain (more or less). Right from the first sound check, everyone commented how "good" it sounded. Even the dinner ladies (well not really but you get the drift).

I don't go to large gigs anymore. There is something just no quite right about the sound I'm hearing. There are issues with the midrange (snares sound weird now) and the bass is generally a disaster. the intent appears to be move loads of air but forget about tuneful bass where you can hear the bass guitar wire slap, etc.

[cooky1257]

To my ears there does appear a disconnection between the subs and the flown line arrays and it's only a few occasions where I've been happy at larger gigs covered in this way the norm being rather like a giant loudness button.
The best I've ever heard is a point source system by Funktion1 which was like a giant hifi -awesome.

http://www.funktion-one.com/
cooky

[robertbartsch]

One other thought.

Clapton/Winwood did an accustic set lasting about 15 minutes. The sound was very good - no muddled vocals, clear sound with good dynamic range.

What conclusions could you draw from this?

1. The sound system may have been capable but the hall's accustic properties likely destroyed non-accustic electric instruments for a full 7 piece band playing full out rock tunes?

2. Accustic lower SPL music material is easy to reproduce even with over stressed systems in crappy hallz?

3. Nothing?

[Titanium Dome]

One other thought.

Clapton/Winwood did an accustic set lasting about 15 minutes. The sound was very good - no muddled vocals, clear sound with good dynamic range.

What conclusions could you draw from this?

1. The sound system may have been capable but the hall's accustic properties likely destroyed non-accustic electric instruments for a full 7 piece band playing full out rock tunes?

2. Accustic lower SPL music material is easy to reproduce even with over stressed systems in crappy hallz?

3. Nothing?

4. The lazy sound engineer got lucky.

[Andyoz]

To my ears there does appear a disconnection between the subs and the flown line arrays and it's only a few occasions where I've been happy at larger gigs covered in this way the norm being rather like a giant loudness button.

I have talked to a few young sound engineers (good ones) and they generally admit that the industry (concert goers, bands and promoters) want the smilie face EQ curve. Plenty of low and highs. They don't necessarily like to do it, but they have to earn a living and if they won't do it, they lose the gig.

In general, it all sounds a bit crap to me. The huge lump of sub energy around 40-80Hz totally washes out any nuances further up around 80-160Hz which I think is a very important octave to get right...information in that octave will be masked by your ear/brain if there is too much energy in the lower octave. The mistmatch can be 15-20dB sometimes which is insane IMO.

One of the other reasons they pump up the bass is that if they are working to noise limits, these are generally given in A-Weighted dB levels and the low freq energy can be bumped up without pushing up the dBA level too much.

[Steve Schell]

I attended a show by Lucinda Williams at the House of Blues near Disneyland a couple of weeks ago. She was great as always after she finally arrived, but we had been subjected to an hour of high decibel uninspired nonsense by her band filling in by then. The levels were just crazy in there all night. Even standing in the back with foam earplugs in tight, my ears didn't straighten out for three days.

Andyoz, they seemed to be doing the happy face at this gig. The low frequency fundamentals impact the body and are fun for about the first two minutes, then annoying after that. This super high SPL craziness is just nuts, and the main reason why I rarely attend pop music events.

[hjames]

I attended a show by Lucinda Williams at the House of Blues near Disneyland a couple of weeks ago. She was great as always after she finally arrived, but we had been subjected to an hour of high decibel uninspired nonsense by her band filling in by then. The levels were just crazy in there all night. Even standing in the back with foam earplugs in tight, my ears didn't straighten out for three days.

Andyoz, they seemed to be doing the happy face at this gig. The low frequency fundamentals impact the body and are fun for about the first two minutes, then annoying after that. This super high SPL craziness is just nuts, and the main reason why I rarely attend pop music events.

I had something like that back in the mid-70s ... went to see a band (either Roxy Music or Hot Tuna) in a small theatre in DC, and when we arrived, the warmup act was doing their best to burn down the building - Frank Marino and Mahogoney Rush at FULL VOLUME.
I wouldn't even go into the theatre until they finished their set and were off stage because I knew I wouldn't hear any nuances of the act that followed after that assault.

Blame the record label for mismatching the artists so much!

But - with that kind of attitude, why pay good money for that kind of abuse ...