Which 12" woofer matches my needs best?

[testwork]

I'm looking for a JBL 12" woofer for a DIY project. It needs to play up to 1200-1500hz without any problem, as it'll be the low end on a two-way system.

I have subwoofers which will provide the subsonic duties.

This JBL 12" speaker in addition to sounding good with jazz and vocals, will be asked to provide a lot of "slam" because I enjoy a bit of "extra". This doesn't mean I need it to offer 120db at 30hz. Because I have subs for that. What this means is it needs to sound good with rock and roll and jazz and some pop, all at loud volumes.

I'm okay with used ebay treasures. Budget is about $200 for a pair but is flexible.

I'd prefer the dark grey cone over the cream colored. But beggars can't be choosers. Thanks for any suggestions!

Btw, box size doesn't matter. I can go big or small. But prefer 12" speaker due to width constraints.

[Loren42]

I'm looking for a JBL 12" woofer for a DIY project. It needs to play up to 1200-1500hz without any problem, as it'll be the low end on a two-way system.

I have subwoofers which will provide the subsonic duties.

This JBL 12" speaker in addition to sounding good with jazz and vocals, will be asked to provide a lot of "slam" because I enjoy a bit of "extra". This doesn't mean I need it to offer 120db at 30hz. Because I have subs for that. What this means is it needs to sound good with rock and roll and jazz and some pop, all at loud volumes.

I'm okay with used ebay treasures. Budget is about $200 for a pair but is flexible.

I'd prefer the dark grey cone over the cream colored. But beggars can't be choosers. Thanks for any suggestions!

Btw, box size doesn't matter. I can go big or small. But prefer 12" speaker due to width constraints.

Unless you provide us with the tweeter you plan to use, it is impossible to match a woofer to your project.

You need to consider where the tweeter frequency response covers and the SPL for the tweeter.

It is okay to have a tweeter that has a higher SPL level than the woofer, in fact it is necessary so you can pad the tweeter volume down to match the woofer.

There is more to this than you realize and it is not a simple process to select complementary drivers for a system.

I am sure there are many here that can help, but you need to tell us first what you have for a tweeter. Otherwise we are powerless to help. If you haven't selected a tweeter, then that's another matter altogether.

[speakerdave]

The 1200H was used that way in the 4425MkII. AKA C1200 in the Century Gold. Not particularly common, and I don't know if JBL still supports them.

[testwork]

I'm matching the woofer up with a Selenium D220i and a JBL horn for an ewave project I found over on audiokarma.

Dave, I'll research the 1200H. In my limited reading I haven't come across it yet.

Would appreciate all feedback guys!

Thanks,
Eddie

[pos]

The 2214H used in the 4425 (first generation) would also work and is quite common on ebay. The 128H could also be a good candidate.

Both of these do have quite heavy cones with a Fs around 20Hz.
If you have subs and are looking for a more efficient driver you might try looking for a 2206H or a 2204H.
Here is a good deal, with fresh cones (the PT waveguides are already mine ) :
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...ad.php?t=25092

[Loren42]

I'm matching the woofer up with a Selenium D220i and a JBL horn for an ewave project I found over on audiokarma.

Dave, I'll research the 1200H. In my limited reading I haven't come across it yet.

Would appreciate all feedback guys!

Thanks,
Eddie

I can't find any data on that Selenium number D220i.

[testwork]

POS, thanks for the suggestions! I've heard of those two models. The 2204H doesn't seem to hold it's value on eBay though? All the recently sold ones went for under $100 each, with recones.

Loren,
Sorry, I had the name wrong. It's the D220Ti. There are some graphs and other info on the first post here:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=150939

[pos]

Buying drivers off ebay is like rolling a dice. You never know for sure what you get: aftermaket cone, domaged spider of voice coil, shifted magnet, etc...
Here you have a fresh recone with a proper kit, and you can be sure it was installed like it is supposed to.

[4313B]

POS, thanks for the suggestions! I've heard of those two models. The 2204H doesn't seem to hold it's value on eBay though? All the recently sold ones went for under $100 each, with recones.

Then they're obviously stolen. It wouldn't make any kind of sense to recone a driver with a genuine JBL recone kit and then sell it for less than what it cost to recone it.

[Earl K]

I'm looking for a JBL 12" woofer for a DIY project. It needs to play up to 1200-1500hz without any problem, as it'll be the low end on a two-way system.

I have subwoofers which will provide the subsonic duties.

This JBL 12" speaker in addition to sounding good with jazz and vocals, will be asked to provide a lot of "slam" because I enjoy a bit of "extra". This doesn't mean I need it to offer 120db at 30hz. Because I have subs for that. What this means is it needs to sound good with rock and roll and jazz and some pop, all at loud volumes.

I'm okay with used ebay treasures. Budget is about $200 for a pair but is flexible.

- Well, IME, your budget isn't realistic enough for you to buy a pair of JBL SR ( Sound Reinforcement ) twelves that are guaranteed to be up to spec. ( FWIW, you can't even buy a pair of B&C Pro twelves from P.E. for that price / add 50 to 100% more for PE )

- The problem here is that a goodly portion of these "eBay treasures" that you reference, will have cheaper "no-name' ( aftermarket ) recone kits installed into them .

- As such they'll never perform as JBL engineers intended.

- Compounding the issue is that the people who typically buy these reconed "imposters", will never know that their new aquisition doesn't perform as intended . This is because one needs to have, either a lot of experence with the item in question or test gear to compare said item to known specs .
- The sad ( & maddening ) thing here is , the disappointed buyer is then quite likely going to blame JBL & the model of woofer as a "non-performer" ( all because of their "short-sighted" buying practices ) .

- The aftermarket kit sellers ( with their mediocre parts ) are helping "devalue" the resale value of used JBL transducers .
- ie; Reference your own observation about not wanting to buy used 2204s on eBay ( due to low resale value ) . Everyone would like their investment to hold its' value .

- So my recommendation; buy bonafide JBL speakers with a known pedigree if you want them to perform correctly & to then maintain their value .

- Anyways, ( lecture over ) , I'd suggest buying a pair of "real" JBL 2204Hs or 2206Hs ( since you already have subs ) .

- 4313b is selling a pair with new kits in them ( making them essentially brand new speakers ) / that's a bona fide deal right there .

>< cheers

[JeffW]

I always skip right over the Ebay ads that say "Fresh Recones!". They put that out there like a source of pride, I'd personally rather have empty baskets (unless I knew the guy and could verify that they were the proper recones, like the pair of 2204H mentioned in this thread).

[originaltubino]

This JBL 12" speaker in addition to sounding good with jazz and vocals, will be asked to provide a lot of "slam" because I enjoy a bit of "extra". This doesn't mean I need it to offer 120db at 30hz. Because I have subs for that. What this means is it needs to sound good with rock and roll and jazz and some pop, all at loud volumes.
[snip]
Btw, box size doesn't matter. I can go big or small. But prefer 12" speaker due to width constraints.

You mention that this will be in an econowaveguide two-way, right?

Can you go 15" despite width constraints? You want some slam, and you want efficiency to keep up with the compression driver... make a few trips to donate plasma or whatever to come up with a little more $ and you can do this system more in line with Wayne Parham's Four Pi. I built with JBL 2226, and though it cost a bit more, I have NO REGRETS. Lotsa good clean punch in that 45-80hz range.

[tomee]

This sounds like a job for the Le14a
Or... if you're using a sub, how about a 10" woofer?

[Loren42]

I guess I should ask what you actually plan to do with this system. Is this for HiFi?

The Selenium is a lot of driver for HiFi, particularly if this is a small room. The SPL is at least 109 dB, but you can pad that down.

The other area of concern is the crossover frequency. The recommended minimum is 1.5 kHz. However, that lower end is probably not a good crossover point and you need to consider 2 kHz as a better target.

So, you need a woofer that can stretch to at least 2 kHz. The 2204 is 6 dB down at 1.5 kHz, so that may not be a good choice. The 2206 is at about 9 dB down, so that is worse. Same problem with the 2214 at 9+ dB down at 2 kHz.

No way do you want to consider a 3-way system. Not only will the extra drivers break your budget, but the crossover costs will kill you.

Someone recommended the 128H. That is about 4 dB down at 2 kHz and not quite 3 dB at 1.5 kHz. With a Fs of 20 Hz it would make a good woofer, but I would reconsider your Selenium. If you mated a good quality dome tweeter to the 128H that can extend below 1.5 kHz (something like the Tang 28-537SH 1-1/8" dome tweeter, but with a few more SPL) you might have a nice system with some impressive qualities.

The challenge is finding a tweeter that has a lower crossover frequency (1.5 kHz or less) and an SPL level of at least 92 dB to work with the 128H. That is not an easy thing.

You may need to go with a horn tweeter to do that, but I don't like horns for HiFi as much as I do a good dome tweeter or even a ribbon. Maybe someone here can provide better insight.

A 3-way crossover will probably set you back $300 or more for a pair. Even a 2-way is going to cost some money if you select good components. The crossover is an important element in the speaker, so don't cheap out.

The other consideration is a 2-way system is where the crossover frequency is relative to the music. A crossover at about 1 to 1.5 kHz is going to be right in the middle of the music band and care must be taken when matching drivers and building a crossover. Since the crossover frequency is in the middle any imperfections or phase issues tend to be amplified.

[BMWCCA]

The Selenium is a lot of driver for HiFi, particularly if this is a small room.

It sounds like this is based on Zilch's e-wave system, most likely using his crossover-build kit and design. Pretty well-proven and accepted as an application for hi-fi use here and over on Audiogon. Or see something about it through a link to Wired in this thread: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...ad.php?t=25126