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Thread: Soundcraftsmen purchase help

  1. #46
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    Wow, kind of late to the party, but what is so special about those Soundcraftmen amps people are going through a lot of trouble to obtain. When the retailer Fedco was in business you can buy them by the trainload fulls. I have one of the older Soundcraftmen PE2217 pre-amps. It's about 20 years old at least, and I still use it to this day, and it has never failed me. Wouldn't a current production Crown D- series amp fill the bill? Those Crowns are bullet proof, I am using a set of D75s

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKLee View Post
    Wouldn't a current production Crown D- series amp fill the bill? Those Crowns are bullet proof, I am using a set of D75s
    Priced a new D75A recently?
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    Hello everyone,

    I'm new to the forum.

    I used to be a salesman for their products from 1987 until MTX bought them and annihilated them by the mid 90's.

    We were also the main "used" equipment store in New Jersey for several years so I have heard a lot of stuff.

    I'm going to talk specifically about the lateral mosfets models in particular.

    1st generation (early 80's to mid 90's).

    (POWER OUTPUT CONSERVATIVELY STATED BTW).

    PRO POWER 8 - (FULL CHASSIS, DUAL FANS, BRIDGING INCLUDED, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, 12 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, 375W/CH@8R, 600W/CH@4R, 900W/CH@2R, 1200W/MONO@8R, 1800W/MONO@4R).

    PM1600 - (FULL CHASSIS, DUAL FANS, BRIDGING INCLUDED, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, 12 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, 375W/CH@8R, 600W/CH@4R, 900W/CH@2R, 1200W/MONO@8R, 1800W/MONO@4R).

    PM840 - (SHOEBOX, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH8R, 315W/CH4R, 275W/CH2R, 600W MONO, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    PCR800 - (SHOEBOX, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH8R, 315W/CH4R, 275W/CH2R, 600W/MONO EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    PM860 - (SHOEBOX, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, HIGH CURRENT, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    PRO POWER 4 - (FULL CHASSIS ,LED DISPLAY, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPEAKERS, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH @8R, 315W/CH @4R, 450W/CH @2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R).

    PRO POWER 3 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPEAKERS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    PRO POWER 1 - (SHOEBOX, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    PRO POWER 10 - (FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, DUAL LED DISPLAY, DUAL PCR PS, DUAL FANS, A BEAST, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R or 600WX2@8R and 900WX2@4R, HIGH CURRENT, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

    PRO REFERENCE TWO - (FULL CHASSIS, LED DISPLAY, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPKRS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    PA2X200 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPKRS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    A2502 - (FULL CHASSIS, LED DISPLAY, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPKRS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    RA5502 - (FULL CHASSIS, LED DISPLAY, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, OUTPUT FOR 4 SPKRS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    RA5501 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R).

    A2801 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    300X4 - (FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, DUAL PCR PS, DUAL FANS, A BEAST, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R or 600WX2@8R and
    900WX2@4R, HIGH CURRENT, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

    DJ900 - (FULL CHASSIS, FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 6 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, HIGH CURRENT, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED 205W/CH@8R, 315WCH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

    DJ600 - (FULL CHASSIS, FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 4 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W@2R, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

    NEWER GENERATION WHEN MERGED WITH MTX:

    A900PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, DUAL FANS, INTERNAL BRIDGING, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, NEUTRIK, FULL CHASSIS 4 CH, 2 PM860S IN ONE PACKAGE, 12 HITACHI TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH 375W/CH@8R, 600W/CH@4R, 900W/CH@2R, 1200W/MONO@8R, 1800W/MONO@4R, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

    A400PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, HIGH CURRENT, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED 205W/CH@8R, 315WCH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, INTEGRATED BRIDGING).

    A200PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, 1/4" AND BALANCED INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    A100PRO - (FULL CHASSIS, 2 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, 1/4" INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 60W/CH@8R, 90W/CH@4R, 135W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    A400 - (FULL CHASSIS, 6 MOSFETS PER CH, RCA INPUTS, HIGH CURRENT, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH 205W/CH@8R, 315WCH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    A200 - (FULL CHASSIS, 4 MOSFETS PER CH, RCA INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 6 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH 125W/CH@8R, 190W/CH@4R, 270W@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    A100 - (FULL CHASSIS, 2 HITACHI TO247 PLASTIC MOSFETS PER CH, RCA INPUTS, LINEAR POWER SUPPLY, CONVENTIONAL COOLING-HEATSINKS, 60W/CH@8R, 90W/CH@4R, 135W/CH@2R, EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    S800 - (SHOEBOX, 4 EXICON TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    S860 - (SHOEBOX, 6 EXICON TO3-METAL MOSFETS/CH, RCA INPUTS, PCR POWER SUPPLY, FAN COOLED, HIGH CURRENT, 205W/CH@8R, 315W/CH@4R, 450W/CH@2R, 600W/MONO@8R, 900W/MONO@4R EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY BRIDGEABLE).

    Any errors on the description please tell.

    Now,

    The story with these amplifiers is that during their production years according for those in the know in hi fi they weren't good for hi end and according to the DJs they weren't good for professional use, go figure.

    I have tube amps, class D amps and I'm thinking of building one of Nelson Pass class A designs.

    If one reads all over the web it seems that the general idea is that there's no perfect amplifier and neither are these.

    But I have to say they sound extremely good.

    After several A-B tests the newer MTX Soundcraftsmen seem to sound a little cleaner than the older models. It must be taken into account that the capacitors in the old amps are over 20 years old and that component technology has improved vastly. Also the use of the newer Profusion and Magnatec mosfets might make a difference in some of the newer models. This amplifiers are a huge bargain. I have bought several ones in horrible condition and since the sound comes from the "circuit" I just put them on a wood plank or buy a new chassis.

    I have invited some naysayers to do a blind test with some of their amps but they refuse.

    If anyone is interested in schematics email me and I'll gladly cooperate with you.

    BTW,

    I have over 30 Soundcraftsmen amps and I love them all.
    Last edited by rickedd46; 01-02-2010 at 05:17 PM. Reason: Correction

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickedd46 View Post
    If anyone is interested in schematics email me and I'll gladly cooperate with you.

    BTW,

    I have over 30 Soundcraftsmen amps and I love them all.
    Welcome, and thanks for the information.

    I hope you'll hang around in case I need your help in the future!

    Soundcraftsmen PE2217 (since new), DX4200 (2), Pro-Control Four (2), Pro-Tuner Four, Pro-EQ 44 (2), Pro-PT TWO, Pro-Power Four, DC2215 (2)



  5. #50
    Senior Member JBLAddict's Avatar
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    wow, great information, too bad you weren't here when I was agonizing for months of which model to buy

    So, few questions, how does having 6 mosfets vs 4 in the S800/S860 affect performance? In my amp ignorance I had no idea there were multiple chips per channel

    for what reason did the MTX models switch to Exicon from Hitachi?

    lastly, when you say Profusion and Magnatec in the "newer models" you mean in models of SC or other current brands?

    thanks and welcome....
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBLAddict View Post
    wow, great information, too bad you weren't here when I was agonizing for months of which model to buy

    So, few questions, how does having 6 mosfets vs 4 in the S800/S860 affect performance? In my amp ignorance I had no idea there were multiple chips per channel

    for what reason did the MTX models switch to Exicon from Hitachi?

    lastly, when you say Profusion and Magnatec in the "newer models" you mean in models of SC or other current brands?

    thanks and welcome....
    Hello guys,

    Thanks for the welcoming.

    I've always felt kind of an alien for liking these amps which everyone seems to put down. As a used gear salesperson I had hands on experience with a lot of 70's, 80's and 90's gear and spent countless hours listening to stuff that was hyper expensive and horrible sounding to cheap stuff that sounded very good.

    JBLAddict,

    Good questions...

    Any of the fan cooled pcr powered amps I mentioned which have 4 instead of 6 mosfets per channel are actually identical in circuitry to each other but the 4s were cheaper by at least $75.00 to a $100.00.

    The extra 2 transistors give it higher current capability, watts stay pretty much the same since the power supply is exactly the same but it has the enough current to satisfy the demands of all six/ch.

    You can actually feel a stronger punch from the 6 mosfet/ch IMO.

    You can actually add the 2 missing mosfets since the space to connect them are there, except for a little issue...

    These amplifiers are class ab which means that at a certain point the negative mosfets (NPN) are off while the positives (PNP) are on and viceversa. So matching mosfets is important to make sure they share the load as much as possible specially when more than a pair are used. Imagine two guys sawing a big tree, one on each side, swithching from pulling to pushing as they happily saw, then imagine that the exact center of the saw is where they switch from pushing to pulling, one guy is the PNP and the other the NPN.

    Now imagine adding 1 more guy per side but the guy added to the PNP side happens to be 40% stronger than the guy added to the NPN side. This would mean a more stressful position for his partner NPN since he's doing a big amount of his job. Inside an amplifier this means overheating, reduced life of that specific NPN mosfet and possibly early failure depending how hard the amp is pushed.

    So to make it short adding the 2 extra mosfets per ch can only be done right if all 12 transistors are bought together already matched. There's usually a fee for matched mosfets. There's an upside to this because you don't have to buy more than you need to try to match them yourself. Exicons and magnatecs are drop in replacements and some people (me included) think they sound better than the hitachis (could be circuit related, updated parts, etc.)

    Hitachis run expensive, very expensive, even used. Magnatecs and exicons are way cheaper specially by amounts of 10 and up. MTX-Soundcraftsmen started using exicons when hitachi stopped production. These mosfet were exclusively for audio use not for industrial use and a lot of hi end brands from Hafler to Moscode to Perreaux have used the same exact mosfets.

    Renesas (hitachi) makes the plastic ones but I don't know if they make the metal ones.

    Hint: If you have a MTX-Soundcraftsmen S800 or S860 with the usual antique serial number they have hitachis. On the other hand if the serial code has MTX-Soundcraftsmen and next to it a barcode it has exicons. ( I could be wrong ).

    Can I post pics from my hard drive here?

    And if yes how?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by rickedd46; 01-02-2010 at 10:09 PM. Reason: correction

  7. #52
    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickedd46 View Post
    Can I post pics from my hard drive here?

    And if yes how?
    http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=817
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    Thank you.

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    The green board is from a PM860 or DJ900 or 300X4 or PRO POWER 10.

    The beige boards are from a PRO POWER 1,3,4 or PCR800 or PM840.

    The 2 channels are on one board.

    The feedback resistors are different on these boards depending if the amplifier has an input board or not.

    The small board attached to the black heatsink with the temperature sensor is from an A200 or A200 PRO (1 ch) which is identical to the A400 and A400 PRO board except for a removed resistor which is connected to the sensor in the PCR power supply. Since the A200 and A200 PRO use a linear power supply this is omitted.

    One of the pics has all parts numbered per channel, if you need a full sized pic email me.
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    Part2
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    I was looking at the schematics today and noticed that the earliest PCR800s (the ones with the sided power switch, vented front cover and blinking power light) have a board which only acomodates 4 mosfets per channel, I remember when I vacuumed one of these. These boards should be numbered 1699. I don't have any of these amps but I'll be buying some in the future. My friend in florida has a pair of these bridged through a PRO CONTROL THREE preamplifier, he has a huge sound room and they rock the walls and at the same time provide a very clean sound. The newer boards with space for 6 mosfets per channel are numbered 1806.

    Cheers.
    Last edited by rickedd46; 01-03-2010 at 08:27 AM. Reason: Correction

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    very cool stuff, thanks again for taking the time to load the pix and provide explanations. You should not feel odd about your affinity for Soundcraftsmen products, they sell ridiculously well on ebay, with the more vintage (80s) models getting by far the most demand/bids......but there are legions of people out there buying this stuff 20+ yrs later, which seems to be some vindication for you!

    In that regard, it was easier for me to grab the MTX S800s at much cheaper prices than the typical 80s model, as the "collectors" seem to want little to do with MTX branded gear. I simply wanted performance so if the guts were CA made and of the same caliber I was happy to take the bargain. I originally was looking for an A400, which were very hard to come by, so I opted for the S800. With the A100/200/400 being from 1992 and the S800/60 from 1993, any comment on the relative performance/price between those two series of the same timeframe? (I don't know the MSRP for any of them or how they were relatively positioned in the market)

    I checked my two S800s and they both have the bar code with MTX so I guess these both would be Exicon....good to know this.

    Can you clarify what you mean by newer "Profusion/Magnatec mosfets in some of the newer models"? Profusion at least, appears to be a distributor of among other things, Exicon mosfets, do you mean the newer MTX-Soundcraftsmen might sound cleaner in part due to the Exicon mosfets which comes from Profusion?

    thanks
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    Senior Member JBLAddict's Avatar
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    btw, the green board has a smiley face with the words "I love PM860, S860" written on there, was this a stock feature
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBLAddict View Post
    very cool stuff, thanks again for taking the time to load the pix and provide explanations. You should not feel odd about your affinity for Soundcraftsmen products, they sell ridiculously well on ebay, with the more vintage (80s) models getting by far the most demand/bids......but there are legions of people out there buying this stuff 20+ yrs later, which seems to be some vindication for you!

    In that regard, it was easier for me to grab the MTX S800s at much cheaper prices than the typical 80s model, as the "collectors" seem to want little to do with MTX branded gear. I simply wanted performance so if the guts were CA made and of the same caliber I was happy to take the bargain. I originally was looking for an A400, which were very hard to come by, so I opted for the S800. With the A100/200/400 being from 1992 and the S800/60 from 1993, any comment on the relative performance/price between those two series of the same timeframe? (I don't know the MSRP for any of them or how they were relatively positioned in the market)

    I checked my two S800s and they both have the bar code with MTX so I guess these both would be Exicon....good to know this.

    Can you clarify what you mean by newer "Profusion/Magnatec mosfets in some of the newer models"? Profusion at least, appears to be a distributor of among other things, Exicon mosfets, do you mean the newer MTX-Soundcraftsmen might sound cleaner in part due to the Exicon mosfets which comes from Profusion?

    thanks

    The newer amps might sound cleaner for several reasons.

    Aging of the caps and other components.
    Newer components might measure to better standards or simply sound better.
    Transistors in the input stage and gain stage are of higher wattage.

    Example.

    The earlier models used Motorola MPSL01, MM4003 and 2N3440 (the little metal cans next to the heatsinks on the beige boards and the newer ones use MPSA42, MPSA93 and MPSW42 (plastic ones by the heatsink on the green board).

    These transistors are the workhorses which are in the input stage and then the gain stage which then push the signal to the output stage mosfets.

    I personally like the looks on the older models with the soundcraftsmen logo in cursive but in reality soundwise I like them all. I don't mind if it has an LED display or not since doesn't affect the sound.

    The MTX-Soundcraftsmen models actually have a little better quality stuff inside. The pcr power supply is almost identical with little updates.

    Whatever the difference in sound I'm sure can be corrected with very little money since electronic parts of better caliber are not that expensive.

    I put that little face in there.

    I also drew a line to separate the A and B channels.

    These amps really make me happy.
    Last edited by rickedd46; 01-03-2010 at 10:40 AM. Reason: corr

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