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Thread: A fine 4645 cabinet came home with me today!

  1. #31
    Senior Member Doc Mark's Avatar
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    Hey, 4313B,

    I appreciate your sense of humor on this whole thing, and can also understand how you are probably very tired of explaining the differences between these two transducers, especially after 9 years of it!

    In my case, I was simply trying to use the driver I had on hand, and find a box that would allow it to perform up to my expectations. I well may have done just that. Only time, and much more experimentation, will tell the tale. So far, I do very much like how this combination sounds, augmenting the 4411's. I have about 6db of boost at 30HZ and 2-3db of boost at 60HZ, and this seems to help the 2242H "work" in the 4645 cabinet I now own, with the stock tuning of that box.

    But, as I wrote, I do believe I heard a difference between the 2245H and the 2242H, both in twin 4645 cabinets, when we listened to them at Grumpy's place. How "much" of a difference I was able to hear, I really cannot say, as our listening tests were far too short to come to too many firm conclusions in that regard. I can say, however, that it didn't "seem" like a huge difference in what we three guys heard, between those two setups, in the short time we had to play with them.

    Only further tests and MUCH more listening, to lots of different kinds of music, will really tell the tale, me thinks. Yes, I would love to borrow a 2245H for such testing, and it's very possible that I may be able to do so. I'll check that out, and see. In any case, my original goal, to be able to use the brand new (bought used, but never previously mounted, by the look of it) 2242H, in a subwoofer enclosure, has now come to fruition. Can I recommend to anyone that this combination sounds exactly like the same box with a 2245H in it? Heck no!! But, I do like what I hear, so far, and look forward to more experimentation and more listening.

    I KNOW that the 2245H is very probably a better transducer for what I have in mind. I may well end up with one, and then sell, or trade my 2242H. Again, only time will tell. Thanks, as always, for your help, your comments, and your sense of humor in what must surely seem quite hopeless to you, at times!! Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc

    P.S. Miles Davis on the system, right now, and he and his group really sound great!
    The only thing that can never be taken away from you, is your honor. Cherish it, in yourself, and in others.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Valentin's Avatar
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    The 2242H and 2245H are identical. (Simply ignore the visual, mechanical, electrical and aural differences.)

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Mark View Post
    In my case, I was simply trying to use the driver I had on hand, and find a box that would allow it to perform up to my expectations. I well may have done just that.

  4. #34
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4313B View Post
    The 2242H and 2245H are identical. (Simply ignore the visual, mechanical, electrical and aural differences.)
    Dammit, 4313B, that is hilarious!



    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Mark View Post
    I KNOW that the 2245H is very probably a better transducer for what I have in mind...
    Yup, Doc, for an in-home application for old guys like us where the SPL does not get too loud, the 2245H would be the hands-down best choice. But as you can see from grumpy's work, they wil both do the job. Hell - if you've got the 2242H's, you're already in tall cotton...
    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  5. #35
    Senior Member Doc Mark's Avatar
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    Evening, Bo,

    Thanks, very much! I have been listening to the 4645/2242H +4411's combo all day long, and into this evening, and so far, I have yet to find any music that doesn't sound great on that setup. I just played two Diana Krall CD's, back to back, and the string bass is reproduced very well by the 4645/2242H. The bass is natural, tight, deep, and resonant, with excellent definition and attack to the plucking of the strings. I don't know how much better a 2245H could do, but if it IS better, than it is some woofer, that's for sure, 'cause the 2242H sounds just fantastic, so far! I would go so far as to say, that if we had found the 4645/2242H + 4411 combination BEFORE we bought our beloved L300's, we very well might have been happy with the sub/sat setup, and not bought the L300's, at all!! And that, my Friend, is saying something special!! With the 4411's cut off at 80HZ, they sound much better than they have since I got them. To me, they had sounded "small", thin, and lifeless before. Now, they are open, full of life, with a much larger sound stage, and really very, very good. In a day, or so, I'll switch back to the L300's, to see if I like them even better, crossed to the 4645/2242H at 80HZ, as I have the 4411's. I'm not going to be surprised if they, too, actually improve with the addition of that subwoofer setup. Thanks, again, Bo, and have a great evening. Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc (who wants to listen to the new setup, just a little more, before bedtime!)
    The only thing that can never be taken away from you, is your honor. Cherish it, in yourself, and in others.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Doc Mark's Avatar
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    Latest update on the 4645/2242H sub...

    Morning, Friends,

    Today, up here in our mountains, it's foggy, slightly rainy, and a nice 41°F. Lovely weather, and a perfect day for a nice hike in the woods. Unfortunately, we don't have time for that, and I'm still getting over the flu. So, we'll stay home and work a bit, then play later this afternoon. I'll get more time to enjoy the sub and sat combinations.

    OK, last night, I tried to hook up the Ashly 4-way, once again, and once again, I failed to get a good result. Since I began this journey, Grumpy, and also Baron030, have offered many great tips, to help me setup this Ashly crossover, and I really appreciate their efforts to help make this happen. However, I'm quickly coming to the realization that this 4-way Ashly cannot be made to function as a 2-way crossover, especially in a subwoofer application.

    At first, I hooked up the Ashly and got zip. Next, with Grumpy's suggestions, I tried again, and again, got little success. I ended up hooking my old Crown VFX-2A crossover into the system, and it worked very well, albeit much too noisy, with lots of 60HZ hum, for our tastes.

    After a few days of enjoying some massive sub bass, combined with the outstanding sound of our 4411's, last night, I tried again to get the Ashly up to speed, using Baron030's suggestions. No luck. I can get the 4411's to sound great, but too much bass getting to them. Or, I can get a really nice subwoofer output, but with no complete range of sound from the 4411's. But, they both will not work together in the manner necessary for good sound. There's always a huge hole in the middle of the sound spectrum.

    So, I hooked up my old Audio Control Phase-Coupled Activator, which is setup as a 120HZ crossover. It worked, but I really didn't care for the sound it offered. The bass was tubby and boomy, and the 4411's sounded thin, shrill, and harsh, no matter the settings.

    So, I went back to the noisy Crown crossover, and that is once again offering outstanding sound, and a perfectly seamless bonding of subwoofer to satellites. I do hate the loud hum, however, and so would REALLY like to get the Ashly up and running. But, given it's architechture, I am thinking it cannot function as a 2-way subwoofer crossover. Too many differences between the response capabilities of the 4 options for crossover, and the one option for using a subwoofer.

    Any more suggestions, please? I'm thinking of shelving the Ashly and getting an XR1001, 2-way version for this project. I'll save the 4-way Ashly for my later experimentation with 4-way systems. I'm bummed that the XR4001 just doesn't seem to want to work as a 2-way, in my application, but guess that's just the way it goes. The seller, George at Full Compass, assured me that it could work as a 2-way, but maybe it will only do that as a regular 2-way crossover, and not at 80HZ. Who knows....

    So, that's it for now. I'll keep you updated as to how things progress. Today, I'm planning to hook the L300's into the system, replacing the 4411's, and see how that sounds. When Sweet Bride heard the sub+4411's combination, I asked her which main speakers were playing, the L300's or the 4411's? She picked the L300's, after carefully listening to the sound of the songs I played, even though the 4411's were the ones working with the 4645!! That speaks very highly of the benefit of having added the sub to our system, Friends, as she didn't care for the 4411's before (nor, did I), without the sub added, and dearly loved the L300's, as do I!!! Either way, it's very, very nice that she supports me in this hobby, and that she loves music, and values a fine sound system, just as much as do I!!! Thank you, Lord, for bringing me such a wonderful gift as my Wife!! Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
    The only thing that can never be taken away from you, is your honor. Cherish it, in yourself, and in others.

  7. #37
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    No such thing as a dumb question; right?

    Well, I have a single copy of a 2242 and a pair of 2245s. If I remember correctly, the 2242 has a vented motor structure and is rated to take 600 watts of power and the 2245s are not vented and are not rated as high; right? I thought the frequency responses were a tad different too but I could be wrong. So these two different (??) woofers probably have different voice coils, cones and motors; right?

    Anyway, I'm not "hear" (no pun) to beat a dead horse.

    I believe, my query about the HT application in question is relavent since, at least to me, there is some confusion about how it is being used.

    In a HT system there is a dedicated sound track (channel) that receives only ULF material. If a 2245 or 2242 it is not used in a dedicated ULF channel application, I assume in a home setting it is receiving a signal from an original "full range" source, in which case, I would expect it to require a low pass or other passive crossover network; right?

    In the few dedicated subs that I have run in HTs so far, I have used plate amps and they do have controls for low frequencies; I beleive these are passive, but I could be wrong. I assumed these controls are provided to compensate for room accustics.

    Anyway, if I built a deductated sub and ran it from a HT ULF channel, I assume I could do this without frequency compensation and without a passive crossover assuming the source material is only ULF and the woofer and box are rated to handle these frequencies; right?

  8. #38
    Senior Member Doc Mark's Avatar
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    FINALLY, some success!

    Good Evening, All,

    I'm going to post a note I wrote to Bo and Grumpy, detailing how all this finally turned out. Using information each sent my way, I finally figured this all out! Here's my email to them:

    "Good Evening, Bo and Dave,

    I want to thank you both, VERY much, for your suggestions and input in helping me hook up that Ashly XR4001 to the sub and satellite speakers!! I have FINALLY succeeded, and it's with thanks to you both that it all came to pass!

    First, Grumpy, you were right in your second attempt to get this done. There were a few small pieces of the puzzle which did not fall together for me, though, and even though I had it hooked up properly, it didn't sound right to me.

    Bo, your suggestions were right on, with only one small deviation. This particular Ashly unit does not have a "Mid" output, and instead offers a "Low-Mid/Hi-Mid" output, which is actually what Dave had suggested. When I finally got it back into that configuration, I used a bit of info that you had included, regarding using the output levels to balance the levels going to the sub and satellite speakers, in this case the 4411's. THAT turned out to be the missing piece of the puzzle, Guys!!

    Back when I had it hooked up the way Dave had suggested the second time, I noted VERY weak VLF levels coming out of the 4645/2242H sub. Since the Crown unit, hooked up properly, had THUNDEROUS bass out of the same unit, with the same settings, I figured that something was wrong. Yes, indeed, something WAS wrong! When I cranked up the LF output level, almost to max, all of a sudden, I had some decent bass!! YAHOO!!

    Right now, we're listening to Yo-Yo Ma and Friends, and it sounds very good, indeed. I do note a few differences between the sound as it was hooked up to the Crown VFX2A and the Ashly XR4001. For one, there is a bit less "slam" to the bass in the subwoofer. I can get used to that. The other difference is that the Ashly seems to make the VHF just a tad more shrill than does the Crown. Why? I have NO idea. But, I think that all this can be adjusted one way, or the other.

    I have to say one other thing, and that is that my 60HZ hum is STILL in our system, even with the Ashly hooked up. Hummmmm.... This surprises me a great deal, as I'd always thought the Crown crossover was the culprit. But, it's still there with the Ashly. Though not "quite" as loud, it is still too loud for both Cynthia and I and it would be great to find the cause and remove it. I will check our wall plugs for a grounding problem, and also see if any of the cables I've added might be inducing the hum, or picking it up.

    Thanks, again, you Guys, for the great help and suggestions. Using information from you both, I was able to finally see what I was doing wrong, and as you both probably already figured, it was "Operator Error"!! I'll post this basic note on LH, so the other folks can see the results of your fine info. Thanks, Bo and Dave, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Mark"

    So, that's the end result, and I doubt that I would have had such success without the special suggestions offered by Bo and Grumpy! Thanks, again, Guys, for taking the time to help suss this out for me. MUCH appreciated, and tonight Sweet Bride and I are going to watch one of the Star Wars series movies, and see how it all sounds with the Ashly regulating the 4645/2242H sub, and the 4411's. Tomorrow, I'll swap back to our L300's, and see how they sound with the sub. We're both loving this!! Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
    The only thing that can never be taken away from you, is your honor. Cherish it, in yourself, and in others.

  9. #39
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    Hum

    Hey Doc,
    I don't know if this is your situation or if this will help you or not. But, I had a similar annoying hum that developed once and it turned out to be my DC300A. I found that the DC offset had drifted over time. There are some pots inside the amp. I adjusted those guys so as to get the lowest offset possible and as luck would have it -- dead quiet again.

    Again, I don't know if this is your problem. But, you may want to take a look at that.

    Good Luck,
    Steve

  10. #40
    Senior Member Doc Mark's Avatar
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    Hey, Steve,

    Many thanks for that suggestion! I've never messed with the DC offset adjustment on any of my Crown amps, and they very well may be in need of such care. As it stands, right now, I finally gave up, for the time being, as I have too many other things that need my time. We've removed the crossovers, amps, and sub from the system, and have gone back to just the L300s. Sounds fantastic, as usual! I do note, however, that my hum is still there, just at such a low level that I never noticed it before. That tells me that, if the Crown needs adjustment, it's problem now is only exacerbating a grounding problem that already exists in our current setup. Interesting, eh?!!

    Bo, Grumpy, and Baron030, have offered some great clues to helping me track down my errant grounding problems, and when I have time, I will do as they have suggested, removing everything from the system, and beginning at the speakers and amps, work backwards to add things in, until I find the hum problem. That will take a few hours of time, which I don't have right now. Bo suspects the preamp, and he may well be right. I'll post a note here when I have time to work more on this. Until then, we'll enjoy the L300s and count our many blessings! Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
    The only thing that can never be taken away from you, is your honor. Cherish it, in yourself, and in others.

  11. #41
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    DC offest

    Hey Doc,

    To check if you have DC offset takes 2 seconds. But, you need a voltmeter that will measure millivolts (.001volts). Just remove the inputs and outputs from the amp. I forget if the volume knobs hould be all the way off or all the way on. But, I would just have them in the position that you usually listen to the amp at (I assume all the way on). Place one voltmeter lead on the positive output of the amp and the other lead on the negative of the amp. This will give you your DC offset voltage reading. I forget what the exact spec is. But, I think the DC300 should be pretty low -- like .01 volts (or something close to that. I don't think it should be above .05 volts.
    Anyway, it's a very quick measurement and if it's good, you've just eliminated this issue as the culprit. If it's out of spec, it has to be adjusted. This too is pretty simple. But, you have to know which pots to adjust on the circuit board. So, that you will probably a little help with.

    Good Luck,
    Steve

  12. #42
    Senior Member Doc Mark's Avatar
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    Hey, Steve,

    Thanks, very much! I'll dig into the Crown manual and see if they offer any info on how to do it, and what the specs should be. Much appreciated. Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
    The only thing that can never be taken away from you, is your honor. Cherish it, in yourself, and in others.

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