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Thread: A fine 4645 cabinet came home with me today!

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
    Was a little surprised that the in-room differences appeared smaller
    (understanding that these weren't intended as critical measurements).
    Yeah, there's a whole lot going on in the typical room.

    One can put a ton of money into really nice gear and end up with less than they bargained for in the end, if only because of the room. I will never forget the guy with the 4355's and gobs of the best Pioneer gear of the era in his 9 x 12 bedroom at his parent's house... I really should have taken pictures of that...

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4313B View Post
    Yeah, there's a whole lot going on in the typical room.

    One can put a ton of money into really nice gear and end up with less than they bargained for in the end, if only because of the room. I will never forget the guy with the 4355's and gobs of the best Pioneer gear of the time in his bedroom at his parent's house...
    So true.
    In.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4313B View Post
    Yeah, there's a whole lot going on in the typical room.

    One can put a ton of money into really nice gear and end up with less than they bargained for in the end, if only because of the room. I will never forget the guy with the 4355's and gobs of the best Pioneer gear of the era in his 9 x 12 bedroom at his parent's house... I really should have taken pictures of that...

    Like having a pair of headphones on!!!

  4. #19
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    Rooms are very difficult to tame. Especially timber panelling! I had my theatre setup downstairs in a small to moderate room and last weekend I shifted it all into its new location upstairs. I should have waited until I had the wall and ceiling carpet on but I couldnt wait to crank it up along with my new 50" plasma. It sounds very different in a larger room and the additional carpet will kill any reflections. That is this weeks task. I know that I have often talked about this project but I didn't want to post pics untill I was happy with the room.
    It is a culmination of three years collecting drivers from Ebay, building cabinets and sifting the website here and bouncing ideas of the guys here. Grumpy helped with L150 dimensions, of which I have four, I bounced ideas of Widget about a center chanel speaker a while back and got a lot of good ideas and have come up with something totaly different using 2 x 2235's, an RCF 12/544 (nearly identical to a 2202 until I can lay my hands on a good one) 2 x Le5's and a 2404.
    All in all most of the idea's that came from the guys here were seriously thought about and implemented in some way. I have also used common sense and done many things that are not by the book but things that I thought shoud be correct. I have been very plesantly surprised.

    Pics are fourthcomming.

    Allan.

  5. #20
    JBL 4645
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    I’ve ran a few tests though one with no filters and all three ports open.
    Then I blocked one port up, followed by blocking two ports up.

    Then I applied some parametric EQ filters and used 1/12 smoothing to view the graph.

    There was some issues with possible noise from traffic being picked up by the microphone buses impartially as the engine sounds at around 25Hz 30Hz and its annoying during the daytime.

    Filters applied with Behringer BFQ2496 are

    26.9Hz -6db Q 0.50
    32.8Hz -16db Q 0.33
    34.4Hz -12db Q 0.25
    36.3 -18db Q 0.25
    54.4 -20db Q 0.25
    67.7Hz -6db Q 0.50
    74.3Hz -20db Q 0.33

    I found this to smoother with my Dolby stereo demo DVD-RW disc original Star Trek the Motion Picture 1979.
    As the Enterprise, passes by Jupiter, while being accompanied by Jerry Goldsmith, score nice sub bass extension was felt underneath the sofa boom was somewhere else rather than in my ear!
    Attached Images Attached Images     

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
    Thanks for the re-pop of those plots...
    yeah... had those in mind when taking the measurements.
    Was a little surprised that the in-room differences appeared smaller
    (understanding that these weren't intended as critical measurements).

    Mark, as you get more into this last octave thing, you might want to
    look into an LF EQ, especially if placement options are limited.
    (and lay off the digital cannons )
    Cannons I think the cannons in Master and Commander will suffice. DOWN! ALL HANDS DOWN!

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
    Hi Ash. No EQ was used, during listening just a JBL M553
    using a summed low output, set to 80Hz lowpass, internal 15Hz highpass,
    run into a (knowingly too small for digital cannons) bridged 6230, which
    should have been good for ~300w. I turned the volume down a small
    amount and replayed the old Telarc CD (ca 1979?)... no more clipping.
    It was expected. I never really listen at that level. I didn't feel like hauling
    out the 6290 Spectrum-wise, the cannons should be fairly wideband.

    Thanks for the kind words Jeff.

    -grumpy

    Plot below:
    Purple: 2242H/4518 1m, on center
    Light Red: 2242H/4518 driver, near-field
    Green: 2242H/4518 port, near-field
    Red: 2245H/4518 1m, on center
    Orange: 2245H/4518 driver, near-field
    Blue: 2245H/4518 port, near-field

    Much of the 1m measurement is room. No EQ or crossover in place for measurement.
    Interesting part is the similarity in response/tuning between drivers. Box tuning is
    spec'd at 30Hz with this (3-port) version of 4518 cab (1st gen 4645).
    Is this with frequency sweep like you mentioned tested at 1 meter distance!
    JBL 6290 would be too large for the cannons LOL they sounded wicked in the Empire 20 years ago. Wow 20 years. I feel at times the Alesis RA300 is near to running out of steam its held up fairly well over the past 2 years almost. I feel larger one would give me pace of mind with headroom extension.

    I wouldn’t have normally tested the sub at 1 meter but thought I’d try it out and after looking at the first graph plotted the fist few with EQ filters applied and ran the sweep again looked at the results and continued until a near I had a near flat response.

    The barograph display on the RA300 is hard to tell what output its delivering to the JBL 2240 I know it’s somewhere over 10watts or more, I make sure its kept well away from clip and if should get near I can always switch on the limiter on the Kenwood KRF-X9050D, or just trim the level down.

    It’s the LFE.1 on films that tends to suddenly go right to the top and curse bottoming on most and I keep the limiter engaged for Dolby/dts 5.1 or .1 track only.

    Amazing Life THX trailer almost peaks at -6db on the barograph display during the first few seconds and caution I use I don’t take any chances with it as that is the kind that will end up damaging sub in. I use a little limiting to tame the LFE.1 on Indiana Jones 2008, and little extra level increase to heighten the softer low tones while keeping a tight restrain on the higher peaks.

    If I had more subs then it would be different matter. One can be pushed to far and it will end up bugged like the ABC Bournemouth they pushed that signal JBL 4645 too far and too loud and it didn’t last 10 years before getting damaged.

    Empire’s original 8 was sonic flawless blast!



    Have you ever tried stuffing up any of the two ports and it does tend to lower the output but increase the lower portion with an extra octave.

    Can you apply some EQ and so we can see what its like? Or try using the filters I applied thou your room is most likely different from mine maybe better than my room?

  7. #22
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    'Can you hear a difference?'.
    No. JBL really only makes one woofer and one tweeter. Then they make them look different and give them different part numbers to fool the goofballs that have "application specific" burned into their pathetic little brains. It's a ploy.

  8. #23
    JBL 4645
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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
    This was also in 2ch space, not the HT area, so no Master & Commander here
    That’s a pity it sound neat at least you’ve got visual image for reference where with music you don’t unless, unless you can feel the difference at certain musical notes.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4313B View Post
    No. JBL really only makes one woofer and one tweeter. Then they make them look different and give them different part numbers to fool the goofballs that have "application specific" burned into their pathetic little brains. It's a ploy.
    HAH!

    Just as I suspected.

    [I hope Ian's reading this.... ]

  10. #25
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    Greetings, Friends,

    Well, good things come to those who wait, and who have patience, no matter how hard won they may end up being! Today, as I was checking out the phase on our L300's for possible problems (see that thread on proper phasing for the 2235H), I FINALLY made time to get my 4645 hooked up, right now via my Crown VFX-2A crossover (until I can figure out the Ashly, and by the way, with a HUGE tip 'o the hat to JBL Brother, Grumpy!). Right now, I'm listening to the 4411's, with the 4645 finally added, and must say that they sound very nice, indeed! The subwoofer, with 2242H installed, crossed at 80HZ, is adding exactly what I was "missing" before, when I first got the 4411's. Neat!

    The 2242H sounds pretty good in that 4645 cabinet, and though I'd love to compare it to a 2245H in our listening environment, and hope to do so someday, I'm very pleased with the super solid bottom end the 4645/2242H combo is offering, so far!! I'm enjoying Yo-Yo Ma, and some great bowed cello, at the moment, but soon will began branching out to some deep double bass, pipe organ (thanks, Clark!), and some outstandingly well recorded electronic/synthesized bass (thanks, Heather!), and lots of other great stuff!! I'll report back after a very long listening session, maybe several days, or a week, and let you know what I think of the sub addition. I also will use it with the L300's, to remove that extra bottom end of work for them, and see what that offers. Oh, my.... THIS IS FUN!!! Thanks, again, to Grumpy, for sending that 4645 cabinet to me for such a good price, and for all his help and tips in getting it hooked up properly! Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
    The only thing that can never be taken away from you, is your honor. Cherish it, in yourself, and in others.

  11. #26
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    So the verdict is that a 2242 sub and a 2245 sub perform similarly?

  12. #27
    Senior Member Doc Mark's Avatar
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    Hi, Robert,

    Well, I don't know if I can go that far...., yet. But, I did hear them side-by-side, at Grumpy's place, both the 2242H and the 2245H installed in twin 4645 cabinets, both tuned exactly the same, and I must admit that, whilst I did "think" I heard a difference, it was not very great as far as I'm concerned. I seem to remember Grumpy making a similar comment when he, Todd, and I were enjoying the comparison of those two woofer/cabinet combinations.

    From others on this forum, I've read that they feel that, in actual listening, the two woofers, each in a proper cabinet, are very close in reproduction and sound. However, if you look at their performance graphs, you can see that there IS a difference, with the 2245H easily appearing to have the edge.

    But, to me, it's in the listening, and many times, graphs don't tell the whole story. Same with cabinet tuning. The charts can tell you one thing, your ears may tell you something completely different. Guess that's what makes it all fun.

    As for me, I'm going to be listening to the 4645/2242H combination for a good, long while, and see how it sounds with lots of different types of music. I've heard that this combo lacks some musical detail and finesse, which the 4645/2245H offers. That may not be great enough that my ears will hear that, in our actual listening environment. But, I still may try to secure a 2245H for testing, and see what my own ears tell me, right here in our environment.

    In any case, I'm extremely happy with the 4411 + 4645/2242H combination, crossed at 80HZ, and I'll continue to play with it and do a little more experimenting to see how my first impressions hold up.

    One negative is that my old Crown VFX-2A is just as noisy as I remember it being, and there is a very apparent 60HZ hum in the system now, that was not there before. So, it's either that crossover, or the Crown DC300A that I'm using. I'm betting it will be the crossover. As I get more time, I'll slowly figure out why the Ashly XR4001 didn't work for me, when I tried it first time. With the wonderfully detailed information that Grumpy sent along to me, I'm sure I will eventually see what I did wrong, and get that Ashly up and running. I also have my Audio Control Phase Coupled Activator, which I used to use as a crossover between my sub and sats. It's card is for 120HZ, however, which is too high for my uses.

    One way, or the other, I soon hope to get it all straightened out, and get back to a quiet system with no extraneous hums. I also look forward to seeing how the sub sounds with the L300's, at 80HZ, or even 60HZ!! Very nice to have options! Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
    The only thing that can never be taken away from you, is your honor. Cherish it, in yourself, and in others.

  13. #28
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    Mark:
    Could you explain the 80hz crossover? So you are running a 2245 as a sub and the low pass filter is 80hz?

    Is this in a HT setup? This is not part of a full range sytem; right?

    Anyway, I have two fresh reconed 2245s now and I'm not sure how I will use them.

  14. #29
    Senior Member Doc Mark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertbartsch View Post
    Mark:
    Could you explain the 80hz crossover? So you are running a 2245 as a sub and the low pass filter is 80hz?

    Is this in a HT setup? This is not part of a full range sytem; right?

    Anyway, I have two fresh reconed 2245s now and I'm not sure how I will use them.
    Hi, Robert,

    I'm wanted to get a good sub, in this case something that would work with the 18" woofer I already had, the 2242H, and wanted something about the size of the 4645, or maybe just a tad larger. As the 8 cubic feet of the 4645 is just about perfect for the 2242H, I was happy and blessed when Grumpy offered me one of the 4645 cabinets that he scored a little while back!

    I want to use the sub to relieve the L300's of having to reproduce the VLF stuff, and thereby cut down on IM distortion, and let the L300's breathe easier, even though I've loved them without using a sub. I think they will sound even tighter when they don't have to reproduce the VLF stuff. I can say that the 4411's CAME ALIVE when I joined them to that sub!! When I first got them, I was a bit disappointed because they "sounded small", expecially when compared to the L300's. I am happy to report that, in conjunction with the 4645/2242H combination, the 4411's sound tighter, and much "larger" than they previously sounded!! I very much enjoy their detail, and the airy quality to the MF and HF. I think that, combined with a really good subwoofer, these speakers are outstanding!

    I look forward to using the sub with our L300's, for the very same reasons, and fully expect to hear the same kinds of results. We'll see what happens when I have time to play with it. Right now, I'm going to leave the 4411's, and the sub hooked up together, and enjoy them for a bit. When I get a chance to play more with the L300's and the sub, I'll report back.

    In answer to your question about HT, we really don't have such a system. We listen to movie soundtracks through our stereo system, and so the L300's have really been getting a workout with movies like "Master and Commander", "The Last of the Mohicans", and "Titanic"! They have come through with flying colors, as far as I'm concerned! But, if they can be made to sound even better, with the addition of our new subwoofer, hey, we're all for it! Eventually, we may end up with a JBL HT system, using the L300's, our yet-to-be-finished 4333's, and the 4411's, all supported by the 4645/2242H subwoofer. That, or something like it, should be flat-out amazing!!! But, our front room, whilst fairly large, might not be THAT large that it can support so many large JBL's. So, time will tell how it all turns out. I hope that answers your question, but it not, please take another shot, and I'll take another run at it. Thanks for your interest and have fun with your 2245H's! They are outstanding subwoofers, by all accounts, in the right box, and tuned properly! Well done in scoring them. Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
    The only thing that can never be taken away from you, is your honor. Cherish it, in yourself, and in others.

  15. #30
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    So the verdict is that a 2242 sub and a 2245 sub perform similarly?
    Have you read what everyone has posted on this subject over the past 9 years?

    Here, let's make it easy for you guys that keep asking the same question twenty times.

    The 2242H and 2245H are identical. (Simply ignore the visual, mechanical, electrical and aural differences.)

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