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Thread: New K2 S9900

  1. #46
    Senior Member Hoerninger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by villastrangiato View Post
    For twenty plus thousand dollars, one would expect some active features.
    In a posting by 4313B ahead of yours cited there is a link to a white paper "which should answer any pertinent questions posed in this thread ...". (Appropriate frequency response below.)
    I've wondered for years why anyone would want to spend 15 to 20K for a pair of K2's when bass response is -10db at 35hz.
    For music in normal rooms this is sufficient. If you want a home cinama for earth shaking lows you should go with several subs for a better performance - it is quite another shoe.
    Although the Be drivers do look like a major advancement in dynamic capabilities - on paper at least.
    Not only this but in resolution and clarity too.
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    The techbot graphs for the 250 and K2 look pretty darn close - both losing about 10db at roughly 35hz. For JBL's flagship though, I would expect performance that is at least equal to - not inferior to competing products.

    Case in point: Velodyne DD18. Now before you start, don't give me a line about this being a sub and not a fair comparison. There are a number of other companies that produce full range flagships that dont need a sub - Wilson Audio comes to mind.

    Seriously, who was Velodyne 50 years ago? This is J freakin' BL we're talking about. If Velodyne can come up with a sub that provides accurate response from 14-120hz with about .5% distortion - why can't JBL show them how to build a unit that not only matches its performance but provides the durability and reliability JBL is famous for - something most of the Velodyne owners I've known have complained about? And if your spending 20-25 thousand for a system - shouldn't it be part of the system not an add-on option?
    And to someone else who previously posted, low bass performance does matter and YES, there is a lot of important musical information down at that frequency. I run a Crown Macro Tech 2400 with my 250ti's and you have to be very careful on many recordings, hell not even recordings - my Kenwood L07T MII produces enough FM low bass energy from overblown hiphop stations to send the LE14H-1's into orbit at roughly half gain setting on the Macro Tech and half gain setting on the PSL-2 preamp. For people that want to exploit the full dynamic range of modern technology and performances like that on my Telarc 1812 Overture disc, you can never have enough dynamic low bass output capability. I'm not saying the K2 can't handle the famous Telarc cannon shots or for that matter, some overblown hiphop crap on FM - but given the specs, I'm a little disappointed JBL didn't decide it was worthwhile showing the likes of Velodyne and its followers what the folks in Northridge are fully capable of.

  3. #48
    Senior Member Hoerninger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by villastrangiato View Post
    - why can't JBL show them how to build a unit that not only matches its performance but provides the durability and reliability JBL is famous for -
    Although I know nothing from JBLs marketing department, I would say the S9900 is not the "jack of all trades devices".

    The discussion about bass is not new here, look for the DD66000 - but it sells.
    ____________
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  4. #49
    Senior Member Valentin's Avatar
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    Question

    i think you dont get it

    jbl measurements are anechoic in room gain will give you at least f3 30hz in room

    and it you see the cut off continues steady so thy do go low

    this gives you natural and agile bass no boominess if you want more bass for movies or for party ad a specialized product

    if you have 46000 for the 2 th best 30hz to 50000 hz speaker i guess you have the cash to buy a nice subs like the array1500 or the 2242h based drivers and or a eq

    if you have a speaker that is flat to 20hz in anechoic condition your going to limit the use of this speaker to only very well treated rooms like studios subs are a good way of adjusting this since you have a volume control

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by villastrangiato View Post
    The techbot graphs for the 250 and K2 look pretty darn close - both losing about 10db at roughly 35hz. For JBL's flagship though, I would expect performance that is at least equal to - not inferior to competing products.
    The old LE14H-1 in the 250Ti has just about the best LF extension of any JBL loudspeaker ever produced. As Greg has mentioned several times - "It damn near goes to DC."

    That said, the 1500AL and 1501AL are superior in overall performance to the LE14H-1 or LE14H-3. And they should be for the amount of engineering that went into them.

    The 1500AL-1 in the K2-S9900 is tuned a bit higher (and the box is a bit smaller in effective volume) than the 1500AL in the K2-S9800 so it doesn't have quite the LF extension. Both systems meet the design requirements regardless of what the guys who hear with their eyes publicly post. We went through this same scenario with people whining about the Everest II. They couldn't get past the F3 spec. Whatever. They wouldn't have the money to purchase the Everest II anyway so it is a moot point. The Everest II, and the K2-S9900, sell to exactly the people they are supposed to sell to and at the end of the day that is all that matters.

    These aren't high volume sellers. These are TOTL High Performance loudspeakers targeted at a market that is head over heels in love with them and I think it's fantastic because they are really nice loudspeakers!
    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin View Post
    if you have a speaker that is flat to 20hz in anechoic condition your going to limit the use of this speaker to only very well treated rooms like studios subs are a good way of adjusting this since you have a volume control
    Good point and Greg seems quite fond of the banana curve response these days (for the last fifteen years or so). It seems to work really well with a variety of rooms.
    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin View Post
    this gives you natural and agile bass no boominess if you want more bass for movies or for party ad a specialized product

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin View Post
    i think you dont get it

    jbl measurements are anechoic in room gain will give you at least f3 30hz in room

    and it you see the cut off continues steady so thy do go low

    this gives you natural and agile bass no boominess if you want more bass for movies or for party ad a specialized product

    if you have 46000 for the 2 th best 30hz to 50000 hz speaker i guess you have the cash to buy a nice subs like the array1500 or the 2242h based drivers and or a eq

    if you have a speaker that is flat to 20hz in anechoic condition your going to limit the use of this speaker to only very well treated rooms like studios subs are a good way of adjusting this since you have a volume control
    I'm aware of the room response issue. Perhaps it is you who are not "getting it". Read here:

    http://www.stereophile.com/subwoofer...ne/index2.html

    note the frequency response and distortion spec
    also note the the amplifier's dynamic output capability (3000watts)

    For a more in-depth education about servo woofer technology, I suggest you read up further about Velodyne (servo woofer pioneer), TC Sounds, and Audiopulse to name a few. This technology has been around for a while and is here to stay. The fact that JBL is not jumping on it - stamping its own know-how and muscle on this part of the industry is a bit of a mystery to me. Since Velodyne introduced the first servo feedback controlled woofer, there have been a number of other manufacturers that have followed suit - most of which have produced high performing products.

    As we all know, the full range of human hearing extends from 20hz to 20khz (if you're young and in good health) . The goal of any top speaker producer should be to make a product that does not limit reproduction in that range - PERIOD. Beyond that range who other than your dog really cares? The K2 just doesn't meet this bar. Should it? That's certainly debateable. Given JBL's history, I should hope most people on here would think its a worthwhile endeavor - particularly if others - like Velodyne are already doing it.

    As for subs just being a tool to adjust room response anomalies - I beg to differ. In fact, my LE14H-1's would beg to differ. The amp I'm running with them in my opinion is not terribly oversized (520wpc, 8 ohms, .05%3rd harmonic from 20-20K) Yet there have been many, many times I've had to back way off of gain to keep the woofer voice coils from hitting the back plates. Generally, before that happens, there are plenty of other signs of distress (unstable cone oscillation/overexcursion/audible breakup) - but the real concern I've had and it has happened a few times in the past 15 years, is when the voice coil hammers the back plate. Should this happen with a flagship JBL speaker that was designed to handle 400W continuous sine wave (presumably around 1khz which is basically a useless spec) - in my opinion - no. But as I have an engineering background - I understand the competing goals of efficiency/sensitivity (low signal compression), low distortion, wide bandwidth, and high power handling capability. The point is, accurate powerful low bass reproduction is and should be a design goal for any manufacturer's flagship speaker. For the price many flagship speakers are selling at these days - it should not be an optional or added cost feature. It should be a significant part of the design effort and ultimately - the package that's presented.

  7. #52
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    The folks at Northridge are showing exactly what needs to be shown at the so-called high end.

    They not only have the best testing facilities on the continent and perhaps the world, but they have the engineering and design chops to do anything that the competition is doing, including copying it and beating it at its game, if that were actually worth doing.

    Instead, they are innovating. Think about that word. Roll it around in your head. Examine its nuances.

    There's no need for JBL to reinvent SVS or Velodyne testosterone engineering and technology. Those who need that kind of thing buy it; those who do not need it don't buy it.

    Northridge also has an extensive and state-of-the-art listening and evaluation process that involves lots of human ears. The results of this testing is the acid test. Specs are one thing; sound is another. If it specs well but sounds wrong, the specs do not matter.

    Over the past several years, JBL has produced some solid winners, including the Project Arrays, SAM units, Everest II, and now the K2 S99000. For the direct driver crowd there's the Performance Series.

    All the second-guessing in the world won't change the fact that the K2 S99000 is another remarkable achievement and that it was designed from a tradition of beautiful execution and magnificent sound infused with technological innovation.
    Out.

  8. #53
    Senior Member porschedpm's Avatar
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    Like arguing one motorcycle is "better" than another because its published top speed is higher. Specs don't tell the whole story especially when they're looked at in isolation of others. Oftentimes it's the sum of the individual components that makes the whole so good regardless of the individual specs. Like tube amps and vinyl. Better is a subjective thing. Until you place your ass in the saddle and do test drive for yourself, you're only getting part of the picture.

  9. #54
    Senior Member JBLnsince1959's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium Dome View Post
    Instead, they are innovating. Think about that word. Roll it around in your head. Examine its nuances.

    .

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    Senior Member spkrman57's Avatar
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    Are yo sure you don't need pro sound speakers???

    I can't believe you are a engineer and still running drivers into the ground!

    The LE-14's are a hell of a driver that do just what they are supposed to do.

    But they were not meant for concert level reproduction!

    It sounds like you would not be happy with any audio speakers on the planet from what I'm reading!

    Ron


    [quote=villastrangiato;242712]

    In fact, my LE14H-1's would beg to differ. The amp I'm running with them in my opinion is not terribly oversized (520wpc, 8 ohms, .05%3rd harmonic from 20-20K) Yet there have been many, many times I've had to back way off of gain to keep the woofer voice coils from hitting the back plates. Generally, before that happens, there are plenty of other signs of distress (unstable cone oscillation/overexcursion/audible breakup) - but the real concern I've had and it has happened a few times in the past 15 years, is when the voice coil hammers the back plate.


    quote]
    JBL Pro for home use!

  11. #56
    Moderator hjames's Avatar
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    My guess is this is a dead thread, for all intents and porposes -
    I see you cannot send a PM to Villastrangiato -
    and he doesn't show in the Members listing - perhaps
    banned??
    - - he may be dead to us, Jim ...

    Quote Originally Posted by spkrman57 View Post
    I can't believe you are a engineer and still running drivers into the ground!
    It sounds like you would not be happy with any audio speakers on the planet from what I'm reading!

    Ron


    Quote Originally Posted by villastrangiato View Post

    In fact, my LE14H-1's would beg to differ. The amp I'm running with them in my opinion is not terribly oversized (520wpc, 8 ohms, .05%3rd harmonic from 20-20K) Yet there have been many, many times I've had to back way off of gain to keep the woofer voice coils from hitting the back plates. Generally, before that happens, there are plenty of other signs of distress (unstable cone oscillation/overexcursion/audible breakup) - but the real concern I've had and it has happened a few times in the past 15 years, is when the voice coil hammers the back plate.
    2ch: WiiM Pro; Topping E30 II DAC; Oppo, Acurus RL-11, Acurus A200, JBL Dynamics Project - Offline: L212-TwinStack, VonSchweikert VR-4
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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by porschedpm View Post
    Like arguing one motorcycle is "better" than another because its published top speed is higher. Specs don't tell the whole story especially when they're looked at in isolation of others. Oftentimes it's the sum of the individual components that makes the whole so good regardless of the individual specs. Like tube amps and vinyl. Better is a subjective thing. Until you place your ass in the saddle and do test drive for yourself, you're only getting part of the picture.
    I like this post alot. How profound. From my world, ain't nothing like seat time.

  13. #58
    Senior Member Fangio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triumph Don View Post
    I like this post alot. How profound. From my world, ain't nothing like seat time.
    +1

    Nice wake-up call / reality check for some going nuts over specs.

  14. #59
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    Servo Subs

    Yes, one can achieve low THD via servos. But, IMHO - the main purpose behind servos in the consumer audio market is to force an inexpensive driver to perform like an expensive one. Electronics and piezo accelerometers are cheap in comparison to a high quality driver.

    My guess is that JBL just does the opposite, that's all....

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium Dome View Post
    The folks at Northridge are showing exactly what needs to be shown at the so-called high end.

    They not only have the best testing facilities on the continent and perhaps the world, but they have the engineering and design chops to do anything that the competition is doing, including copying it and beating it at its game, if that were actually worth doing.

    Instead, they are innovating. Think about that word. Roll it around in your head. Examine its nuances.

    There's no need for JBL to reinvent SVS or Velodyne testosterone engineering and technology. Those who need that kind of thing buy it; those who do not need it don't buy it.

    Northridge also has an extensive and state-of-the-art listening and evaluation process that involves lots of human ears. The results of this testing is the acid test. Specs are one thing; sound is another. If it specs well but sounds wrong, the specs do not matter.

    Over the past several years, JBL has produced some solid winners, including the Project Arrays, SAM units, Everest II, and now the K2 S99000. For the direct driver crowd there's the Performance Series.

    All the second-guessing in the world won't change the fact that the K2 S99000 is another remarkable achievement and that it was designed from a tradition of beautiful execution and magnificent sound infused with technological innovation.
    Hi Dome,

    I would not under estimate the competition but its about holding channel market share through hi end dealers and pushing the JBL brand to the end users with particular models that are going to appeal.

    To explain when I went over to Japan the way hi end audio is merchandised is very different to pehaps elsewhere.

    While JBL sell into a number of other countries after seeing an Everest in virtually every hi end store its a no brainer they sell a lot (proportionally) in Japan.

    Some dealers have stores with nine or more floors and have a floor per brand they are selling or its based geographically on European sound, American sound, World audio and so on. Some stores are more conventional with mass market audio on the ground floor, home theatre on the next floor and as you go up the prices and quality goes up.

    So JBL may have a whole floor in a store or with only one or two other competing brands and there is a sales manager exclusively for that floor.

    The customer arrives and has an appointment to audition a particular model of JBL.

    What I observed is that none of the dealers that I visited had subs being used within any of the hi end rooms.

    The only direct competitor I saw to JBL was Tannoy in that Tannoy obviously have hi sensitivity horn loaded systems and they have quite a following in the hi end market. Some of the Tannoy systems are very very good.

    Most of the other hi brands are all direct radiator systems and European manufacturers dominate this area and some of them are much more expensive than the JBL gear. You have to recognise that collectively there is still a lot of R & D going into that side of the industry and that its only been with the introduction of Be in the K2 9800 that JBL re emerged as a hi end player against the all direct radiator systems. I saw very little in the way of older JBL systems with maybe a 9500 S/H in some dealers.

    There is also a trend towards the hi boy or tower profile of loudspeaker because of space and waf. Lots of hi end brands are moving to this trend and I suspect JBL wants to hold its presence in that area with K2 S99000 as well has have its flagship the Everest.

    Some dealers had a floor almost entirely for demonstration of the Everest.
    No subwoofer to be found.

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