New K2 S9900

[Titanium Dome]

Guy's,

I have been told my humour can be a little dry No fire them up so we all can hear um !

Rich

I have the taste of Dover chalk in my mouth.

[Titanium Dome]

Huikyong went to the store today while I worked in the yard and eventually found myself in the garage pulling out amps and preamps. First, I hooked them up in the garage to my test mule XPL160s, then took some in to slip into the K2 system.

While I was swapping preamps, I was setting up the Synthesis SDP-5 (Lexicon MC-8) when she came home, happy with her treasure. After navigating the menus and getting everything set to 2-channel analog bypass, I'd started a Joe Cocker CD, so that was playing when she came in.

Usually she asks, "Can you turn that down, please?" This has been a sore point sometimes, so I just naturally lower the volume to avoid friction. I lowered it this time, and she commented, "Don't turn it down; I want to hear it." I turned it up a bit, and she requested, "More."



Well, okay!

The SDP-5 is obviously a newer and higher quality unit than the modest Soundcraftsmen P100. Of course, I knew that. The weird thing is, she knew that, too. "That sounds different, even better. What did you do?" I started to explain, but it was a rhetorical question, and here eyes glazed over as I spoke.

I shut up and let the music speak, and her attention returned. I continued to go in and out of the house to the garage; she sat through the whole album.

Unfortunately, I didn't dare stop to swap in other equipment while she listened. There's no point in breaking the spell. I have a couple more amps on tap, plus now I want to bring up the Citation 5.0 to see if it beats the SDP-5.

With the SDP-5, everything is cleaner and there's more "air" (I've heard audio nuts use that term) and lightness in the HF. It was a little strident in the P100 by comparison. Plus, the soundstage cleaned up a lot and more depth was added as well.

There's more bottom end, too, which presents me with a need to keep moving the speakers to find the right place. Right now they're 14" from the front wall and 8" from the sides. I find they sound best when I sit on the coffee table, which means I need to get them out more, but there are some challenges with getting them out too far. At about 20" I'll lose the short wall next to the left speaker, while the right will still have a wall next to it.

It looks like I need to get to a 10x10x10 triangle, maybe slightly larger if possible, for critical listening. I might have to sneak the couch forward 6 inches or a foot, and see if she says anything.

I don't want to jeopardize her acceptance or mess up her positive experience by pushing too far too fast.

[jblsound]

It looks like I need to get to a 10x10x10 triangle, maybe slightly larger if possible, for critical listening. I might have to sneak the couch forward 6 inches or a foot, and see if she says anything.

I've found over the years a triangle somewhere between 8x8x8 to 8x8x10 to 10x10x10 seems to be best with all the JBLs I have had within in most rooms. I'm currently in an 8x8x10, in this room leaves about 6' to the side walls.

[Mr. Widget]

I've found over the years a triangle somewhere between 8x8x8 to 8x8x10 to 10x10x10 seems to be best with all the JBLs I have had within in most rooms. I'm currently in an 8x8x10, in this room leaves about 6' to the side walls.

I have found very similar results.


Widget

[BMWCCA]

I'm in awe of the whole K2 acquisition and discussion. Just beautiful to see and I'm vicariously enjoying the whole roll-out!

I can only add that I'm using my 4345s in a 9x9x9 triangle which does provide a sweet-spot but is also satisfying off-center when there's more than one listener. The boxes are set at something greater than a 60° angle (off the back wall) but leave no hole in the sound-stage and don't seem to split the soloist.

[Titanium Dome]

Looks like 9x10x10 is about as good as it gets for now.

I moved the seats forward 6" or so, and it doesn't look like they've been pushed too awkwardly into the room. This also allowed me to move the rag rug forward an entire foot, which covers a little more of the hardwood floor without ruining the look she likes.

The speakers also moved into the room more, so they're nearly 22" from the front wall and 8" from the sides. That leaves 9' + or - between their centers, and with the right toe in, they both hit the same spot at 10' away.

[Titanium Dome]

I messed around with a few other pieces of equipment and ended up almost where I started.

The bridged, four-channel, high current Fosgate Audionics 4125 amp is still the choice at this time. I still need to pull out that Hafler SR2600 to see what 600W/ch will do, but that requires more time and effort.

Since some folks have advised I might want to try a sub with these, I decided to drag up my unused L8400P and hook it up. Yes, I know, but read on.

By reverting back to the SDP-5, I was able to run a couple of CD/DVD players at a time and compare them, as well as compare their DACs to the SDP-5's DACs. I still didn't pull the Oppo BDP-83SE out of the rack downstairs, but of all the others, my Oppo 980H has the best sounding of the player DACs when using analog pass through on the SDP-5.

However, taking it out of my MCH set up leaves me with nowhere to play SACDs except down in the Two Jims, and I prefer my surround music on the Performance Series, so I was hoping not to have to make a choice. Short term, I didn't.

When I switched to optical, I really couldn't tell any difference between players as you might expect, and since I could compare the player's DAC's with the pre/pro's DACs with the push of a button, it was clear the the SDP-5's DACs were easily as good as any player I have (not counting the BDP-83SE yet).

So short term: optical cable out of player and SDP-5 does the DAC work.

Then it was time to work on the subwoofer theory. Again, the SDP-5 came through, letting me choose a 30 Hz or 40 Hz crossover point to the sub, so the K2 could play all the way down its power range, which starts to drop off around 50 Hz.

The SDP-5 also allows a push of the button switching between 2-channel (no sub) and L7 Music (2-channel and sub), so it was simple to compare with and without. After about an hour of constant switching and tweaking, I got it to the point where the sub seems well integrated. Moving back and forth from sub to no sub is almost indiscernible.

Now I can try lots of different types of music and raise or lower the sub level and crossover point (in the SDP-5; the sub crossover is disabled) to see if there's an appreciable benefit.

If it proves to be a good idea, I'll take the time to install an HTPS400 and see its effect as well. It's a more pleasing sub than the L8400P, but in the limited range of under 40-50 Hz, I'm not sure it matters.

At this point I don't think I'd care for or need a bigger sub. If so, there are LE14H-1, LE14h-3, and 2235 based subs in the house. For purity's sake, I may just dismiss the idea and stick with no sub, too.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Doug,

I have been following the thread and my suggestion is to let your ears adjust for a month or two and then decided on some changes.

From my own experience I recommend you invest in a power amplifier with finesse and real power.

Why? Most of the audibly harsh distortion happens in the power amp, typically at 1 watt and in the HF area.

With such an accurate loudspeaker this is painfully obvious.

If the amp is bad and 95% are bad then no amount of up market dac quality is going to help.

To give you an idea the ML that the show was not in the same league as the Passlabs amp.

No doubt you heard the E2 and the mid tones and resolving power.

Most mass market consumer amps are not going to cut the mustard with the 9900.

A quality power amp will then allow you to make informed choices about other components

Given what has been discussed have you considered a dac/pre like the Bel canto DAC1 or a CD player with dac inputs.

There is a trend toward downloading of most frequently played music and on that basis the most played tunes can be played on demand or streamed off the interent (or stored on a PC). While a critical quality recording might stored on a PC hard drive or played on a high quality CD player.

If you related this to the 9900 minimalist in terms of a system is probably going to give you the best performance. So you could spend 70% on a great power amp and 30% on a good source.

I have been using the Pass Labs X250.5 on my Tad driver based system and it is out of this world in terms of accuracy and musical enjoyment. (There are some good re conditioned deals from Renohifi).

There are also some nice offerings in terms of CD players that also can be used as a dac and combined Dac preamps that will not break the bank.

[JBLAddict]

wow, I'm not sure I ever want to be part of the audio world that is able to distinguish a ML amp as "out of the league" of an $8K Pass Labs amp.... by those standards the rest of us are using Akai boom boxes from Target

[4313B]

by those standards the rest of us are using Akai boom boxes from Target

And that's a problem?

[scott fitlin]

And that's a problem?

Of course it is, because I got my boom box at ACME FRESH MARKET! But IF Target has a better deal, I want to know!

[Mr. Widget]

wow, I'm not sure I ever want to be part of the audio world that is able to distinguish a ML amp as "out of the league" of an $8K Pass Labs amp.... by those standards the rest of us are using Akai boom boxes from Target

From reading the system descriptions that folks have posted here over the years, I think most people are listening to those Akai boom boxes. Then there are those who surprise you as they are using some uber gear and a pair of L100s...

You don't have to spend more on your audio system than you did on your car to have a stellar system, and simply dumping a ton of cash is no guarantee of stellar sound... but a lot of careful listening and choosing is required to get the most out of a system at every price point... and blindly accepting anyone's opinion on specifics is rarely a good idea.


Widget

[Titanium Dome]

From reading the system descriptions that folks have posted here over the years, I think most people are listening to those Akai boom boxes. Then there are those who surprise you as they are using some uber gear and a pair of L100s...

You don't have to spend more on your audio system than you did on your car to have a stellar system, and simply dumping a ton of cash is no guarantee of stellar sound... but a lot of careful listening and choosing is required to get the most out of a system at every price point... and blindly accepting anyone's opinion on specifics is rarely a good idea.


Widget

Well, geez, I was listening to you...

Seriously, I think Ian's and Rich's advice is good, and it's a path I'm following, which is slow and steady. The urge, which I really do understand, is to get it all now and get it right! Nonetheless, I waited and waited for a chance like the K2s, and I'll be doing some more of the waiting game as I go forward with them

Some of this is driven by $$ of course, and some of it is driven by thoroughness. I still haven't listened to everything I already own that might be good with them. Once I hit the highest point I can with what I've got (and throw Grumpy's Proceed in the mix), then I will have a basis upon which to narrow choices.

I've contacted a few folks about getting 30 day trials on certain pieces of equipment, but that likely won't happen for weeks yet. I'm still trying to figure out where I want to end up. The end point probably is a sophisticated music server dishing out bit-perfect files, with perhaps a CD player on the side. TT? Probably not, but who knows for sure? Almost certainly not...

The music server system could be extremely minimalist, and could serve the whole house actually. There's a ton of this stuff out there, lots of it crap, but some of it is very intriguing and getting better with each iteration. Maybe by January 2011 at the big shows there will be a compelling product.

In the meantime, read the next post. Perhaps it's good enough already.

[Titanium Dome]

So I was down in the music/fitness room doing some Wii Fit late afternoon when Huiky arrived home and came down to see me. We talked about her day and some general small talk, then she suggested we stay in for dinner (with me cooking ) rather than go out.

After a while we went up to the main floor, and she agreed to chop some peppers and onions, while I started on everything else. Before she began, she coyly suggested, "Do you want to play some music? Play whatever you want."

I replied, "Really?"

She retracted her offer just a bit. "Well, maybe not anything... I know some of your music. Just something I like."

she clearly meant on the K2, not on the Performance system, so I obliged.

So I pulled out the Joe Cocker DTS disc, which is a favorite of hers. One nice thing about having the SDP-5 in the K2 chain right now is that it'll play DTS through Logic7 in 2.1. It sounded as good as a DTS disc can.

She danced a little, sang a little, chopped a little, and when we were finished cooking we ate, accompanied by some French bread, Camembert cheese, and a bottle of Shiraz.

We had a delightful time, talking, laughing, listening to Joe, and afterward...

Ah, K2, master of romance! You have brought a new dimension of spontaneity to our lives.

[richluvsound]

Wouldn't life be dull without opinions......If I owned either one of those products I would be happy . If I was given one, I would most certainly hope I could be grateful and ,above all, humble about my good fortune.
I haven't heard ML ,but I do think they are beautifully designed . I have heard Pass Labs , they are both beautiful and superb sounding machines .

Rich