Looky WIJG - 4401s and L20T3s

[Fred Sanford]

This will be an extension of this thread, where I learned of these speakers:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ad.php?t=23742

...figuring that the Info forum would be better than the Market forum for further discussion.

Here's my first review from that thread:

They're here, thanks 4wheels for the hospitality & fine conversation & the spare EPI cabs. Say Hi to Ricky for me, and post a pic of him if you get a chance- he's really beautiful.

Quick rundown/first impressions:

The 4401 sounded about as I expected them to (I have the same Adcom preamp, similar Yamaha power amp, and L46s with these 034 tweets) except for the weird whistling on the bass notes. I thought the ports or speaker gaskets were leaking, but it was the threaded inserts on the sides saying "pyew! pyew! pyew!" with each kick drum strike. Gotta plug them up. These will probably be my near-fields for above my computer desk (front ported), and I may play with swapping some tweets to get them where I want (a comparable reference to my L110s on the main mixing desk). Looks like 033s might drop in, that could be an interesting test. They do seem to be a little inefficient, not a big deal but not T-Amp candidates for sure.

The L20T3s had much more extension in the high end with the 035Tis, but the cabs were...let's just say they're quite perforated, to start. One cab has 5 big holes & 2 small holes on the back, the other has 3 big holes & 8 small holes. One side is a mis-matched and poorly applied non-oak veneer- very strange. These will be the on-the-road travel nearfields, and might even get some kind of road case treatment...so aesthetics aren't really a factor at this point. I figure the 035Ti's resale value justifies the purchase, if I need to look at it that way. They're playing now, and sound fine...just gotta plug up some holes.

There y'go, more info as I delve into them.

je

[hjames]

The 4401 sounded about as I expected them to (I have the same Adcom preamp, similar Yamaha power amp, and L46s with these 034 tweets) except for the weird whistling on the bass notes. I thought the ports or speaker gaskets were leaking, but it was the threaded inserts on the sides saying "pyew! pyew! pyew!" with each kick drum strike. Gotta plug them up.

Yep, my M&K Volkswoofer wheezed out the back panel first few times we used it.
I knew the plate amp "guts" was removed when I bought it, and just the metal plate
with heat sink fins remained, but we found there were a few screw holes that whistled
when the sub was driven hard.
Few little dabs of silicon RTV (bathtub calk) and
an overnight to dry cured that quickly!

My L20Ts have 035 Tias in them ...
The L60Ts I just gutted had 035Tias in them,
and the crossover was held down by 2 screws through the yellow fiberglass, and no standoffs.
The "Newport" L60Ts I just sold had 035Tis in them ...

Sounds like a good score! Kudos!

[Fred Sanford]

Some more condition/observation notes from more snooping & testing last night. Nothing in these comments should be taken as anything at all against the seller, I knew what I was getting and they were represented honestly with whatever info the seller had at the time. I also could have looked more closely on site if I wanted, but didn't feel the need and don't regret it.

L20T3 - they're 035TiAs, didn't notice that on the white paper before. Cool. Also 115H-1s as opposed to the 115-Hs in the 4401s. All component dates are November 13th, 1989. Serial #s are consecutive, J122-04310 and -04311. The cabinets look nearly DIY, they've been so crudely stripped & stained. That might explain the re-veneer on one side, they likely went right through the OEM veneer. No speaker gaskets, lots of wood chips inside, crossovers screwed in over fiberglass with only two screws & no stand-offs, flexing the board. I'm looking more & more at big, fat corner protectors and a truck-bed-liner durable finish . Could go front-porting at that point, too, right?

4401 - as with the L46s, I'm not hating the 034s but it's an obvious change when moving from a Ti tweet like the 035TiAs & 026Tis. I see that the 033s tweets are crossed over at 4kHz in my L110s, are there any cautions/warnings for trying them in here with the 2.5kHz crossover? I'll check the DCRs on the two types before attempting, and figure that the L-pad can give me some range to compensate for sensitivity differences. I don't know that I've ever seen specs on the 033s & 034s individually.
The threaded inserts for the OEM stand's bolts seem to be damaged somewhat, or clogged with something - I may have to remove them & find another way to plug the holes. The venting/whistling is quite irritating. All component dating is July 17th, 1984, exactly one day later than one of my sets of L46s! Serial #s are consecutive, 0038630 and -31.

je

[BMWCCA]

Does seem odd there'd be such a whistle given the rather large size of the port and the relatively small woofer. You'd think that little air would have found the course of least resistance.


JBL crossed the 033 at 1800Hz in the L40/L40A. I suspect you'll be all right.

[Fred Sanford]

Does seem odd there'd be such a whistle given the rather large size of the port and the relatively small woofer. You'd think that little air would have found the course of least resistance.


JBL crossed the 033 at 1800Hz in the L40/L40A. I suspect you'll be all right.

How much air pressure does it take for you to whistle? It's most obvious during prolonged bass notes, as it's breathing in & out with the pulses of the woofer.

Thanks for the 033/L40 info.

Sounds like between me, you, Heather and Opimax we now have an interesting JBL Jr. shootout possible.

Of course, the moral of the whole story is that I should have kept the five 4408As I had a couple of years ago...

je

[opimax]

yet even more reason for another listening gathering!
I have 18, 20t 20t3 for smalls

OT which I remove if you wish I have finally hooked up a different preamp on the b460 along w/the SMS1 and found a good deal of my missing bass (if this comes to my house allthough I believe somebody else has some more noteable new to him speakers we should hear instead )

Mark

[BMWCCA]

How much air pressure does it take for you to whistle?

Depends on the size of the hole in my head.


A mini-bookshelf JBL-JR. shootout would be a lot less effort! Maybe not as interesting but just as much fun. "Who shot JR?"

Limited to 6-1/2-inched? Bump it to 8" and smaller might be an interesting comparison. Too bad we no longer have Heather's L60T "Newports" to toss in the mix. I've got L20T, LX22, L1—and L5 if you'll go 8". None of them are busy doing anything really useful right now!


Nice try, Opimax, but with the 4345s in the living room the fire marshal has dropped the maximum capacity to two persons.

[Fred Sanford]

Depends on the size of the hole in my head.


A mini-bookshelf JBL-JR. shootout would be a lot less effort! Maybe not as interesting but just as much fun. "Who shot JR?"

Limited to 6-1/2-inched? Bump it to 8" and smaller might be an interesting comparison. Too bad we no longer have Heather's L60T "Newports" to toss in the mix. I've got L20T, LX22, L1—and L5 if you'll go 8". None of them are busy doing anything really useful right now!


Nice try, Opimax, but with the 4345s in the living room the fire marshal has dropped the maximum capacity to two persons.

If 8" is the limit, I have 4401s, L20T3s and L46s. I used to have 4408s and another model I've since forgotten - sloped front, charcoal grey, I think a Ti tweet? Grille might have been round, only on the woofer?

je

EDIT: 4206, I think:

[Fred Sanford]

Oh, and if it's after my next trip to NY, I can swipe the LX300s and 62Ts there...

je

[Fred Sanford]

Actually, my HP420s only sport 6.5" woofs, they might actually have a chance to make a good showing in this comparo.

je

[opimax]

I thought they were pretty good

Tell the fire marshall it will only be 2 at a time or we can wait till they are dialed in perferct...if I am still alive

My place for the small shoot out works for me

Mark

[Fred Sanford]

Lots more playing/tweaking in between other tasks this weekend. The L20T3s are playing Lyle Lovett's "Joshua Judges Ruth" now- what a REALLY well-recorded album. Tried them both here in the control room (4' from the ears, ~4.5' apart), running full-range with and without the M&K sub helping from 70Hz & down. Also tried the 4401s upstairs (~10' away, and maybe 8.5' wide) with an 80Hz high pass & an NHT sub, while viewing an Annie Lennox live in Central Park DVD.

It pretty simply comes down to the porting and the tweeters - both locations have a good 12" or so of space between their backs & the wall, so both sound fine (the L20T3s maybe a little 'rounder/fuller', the 4401 seem to have a touch more 'impact/punch' as a near-field). The 4401 will get the call for the computer desk monitors, 'cause they'll be maybe 2.5' from my head on shelves. The 035TiAs clearly beat out the 034s, with much more complexity on the reverbs and a smoother, more natural sound on vocal sibilance & percussion.

I'll be trying some 4401 tweeter swaps in the future, but for now the 034's connectors are being quite stubborn, and since I've busted them before (on one of the L46s) I'm reluctant to mess with them much. I'd like to hear my spare 033s in the 4401s. From the spec I've seen, the 033s are a touch more efficient, but the 4401s do have L-pads. We'll see.

The 4401 cabinets will also get the treatment my other black walnuts cabs have gotten, a good sanding & oiling. I've currently got bolts with rubber washer/grommets acting as gaskets plugging up the mounting bracket holes (hoo-ray!). They've also had the input connectors upgraded to gold binding posts which accept bananas or heavy-gauge cable.

The L20T3s will probably end up going on remote recording gigs, so the cabs might be getting some kind of protective/textured paint covering, or maybe that grey carpet treatment that some DJ cabs have (will that reduce refraction off the baffle? ). They may also get corner protectors, if I can work out interaction with the grille frames. I'll be digging out a road case I have in storage, I have a feeling it will fit these perfectly. So far they just got lag bolts stuffed into the big holes, and wafer-head screws into the small ones. Much better, but stupid ugly.

There's a slight chance (given the potential duty assignments) that I may swap both drivers and crossovers between these two cabs, should only be some slight wood cutting to adjust for tweet terminal locations. This should work out to essentially just swapping the porting locations, and adding an L-pad on to the 035TiA (once some x-over mods are in place to accomodate that). Hmmmm...

je

[brutal]

Depends on the size of the hole in my head.


A mini-bookshelf JBL-JR. shootout would be a lot less effort! Maybe not as interesting but just as much fun. "Who shot JR?"

Limited to 6-1/2-inched? Bump it to 8" and smaller might be an interesting comparison. Too bad we no longer have Heather's L60T "Newports" to toss in the mix. I've got L20T, LX22, L1—and L5 if you'll go 8". None of them are busy doing anything really useful right now!


Nice try, Opimax, but with the 4345s in the living room the fire marshal has dropped the maximum capacity to two persons.

Wouldn't all the rest v.s. L5 be like bringing a knife to a gunfight? ;-)

I've not heard the L5, but from what you and everyone else have said, they're certainly on my radar and likely to slay the others. I've had a pair or two L1's come up around here, but they were all over-priced. On the one occasion I made a polite offer based on fact and current rates, I received the usual rude reply.

[Fred Sanford]

[Fred Sanford]

4401-

After consulting with the woodworker-friend that's refreshed all my other black walnut JBL cabs, it became obvious that I'd be removing the 034s one way or another, so I might as well just get to it...carefully. That part went just fine, so of course I had to test-fit my spare 033s. There's a couple minor issues, no deal-breakers: the 033 mounting screw holes are not counter-sunk, and the old tweeter gasketing (looks like a waxy kind of black putty) had conformed to the moulded undersides of the 034s, and caused issues with the flat metal plate of the 033s. I put one 033 in with the gasketing in place, one without (sections had come out with the 034 anyway). The one with the intact gasketing seems to cause some bending of the 033 plate, and is actually the one that allows some leaking air. Keep in mind that on this model, the woofer frame contacts the face of the tweeter plate, and forms a retainer on about 20% of the tweeter plate's diameter. Not sure yet what I'm going to end up doing with the threaded openings for the original brackets, but my temp solution's functioning fine for now. I may actually employ them for mounting, we'll see.

How do they sound? Better. I'm used to the 034s from the five L46s in my basement theater...good, but not terribly detailed or airy. I'm used to the 033s from my L110s used as recording monitors...very good, nicely detailed, but deferring to the 2405s upstairs and the Ti tweets in my HP420s and L20T3s as far as upper-end extension. Enough articulation on reverbs, cymbals and vocals that they perform predictably as reference monitors for all of the analog recordings I've made over the years without any EQ assistance. What I hear is what I get, repeatedly.

In this application, I was running the L-Pads for the 034s at +1 with grilles on, and 0 un-grilled. Just by ear with my reference tunes, I'm running the 033s around -1 with the grilles off. Overall balance seems to work nicely at that setting, yet the 033s seem to be capable of more dynamics - for instance, when there's a tom hit, the stick noise is able to pop a bit more with the 033s, where they seemed to stay blended in with the 034s. Bright piano recordings, again, balance naturally most times but have the ability to light up when asked without harshness or breakup. Faint, subtle sounds (smacking lips, breathing, paper rustling, Steve Gadd's tapping fingernails on a tom skin, string noise & creaking on an upright bass) that are lost with the 034s and right up front on the 035TiAs are present in context with the 033s. Nice. All just an early impression. I'm liking it, and next step is to try them side-by-side with the L110s to see how they fare in that context/comparison.

Of course, the very best motivation for this experiment is that it gives yet another unique entry into the upcoming meeting of the Virginia members of the celebrated 6.5" Works Just Fine For Me club.

L20T3-

The one mismatched veneer side is cherry. The woodworking friend has offered a few options as far as durable & economical ways to plug holes & then re-finish or re-cover the boxes. They may actually end up with all-black counter-top laminate. I'll have to take some careful measurements, but I may actually have enough blue Zilch-cloth to re-do the 4333As, 4401s and these L20T3s. If not, I have more brown or can source some others. Haven't done much research on corner protectors/reinforcement yet.

They've been bounced around the house with various systems (Yamaha RXV-1000 receiver, Sonic Impact T-Amp, Denon PMA-920 integrated amp, Nakamichi RE-1 receiver) and done well as long as they've got some space behind them for the rear ports. I am kind of kicking myself for letting the 4408As go, but that $ funded something else fun, so...:dont-know

je