My "New" 4345 Clones

[Mike Caldwell]

You mentioned a few post back that the 4345's do not have the original passive crossovers. To run the speaker bi amp you will still need the passive crossover components for the mid to high and high to the slot tweeter. The Ashly crossovers have a built in 20hz high pass filter, thats a good for the 18, I think a 30hz filter was recommended.


Mike Caldwell

[hjames]

You mentioned a few post back that the 4345's do not have the original passive crossovers. To run the speaker bi amp you will still need the passive crossover components for the mid to high and high to the slot tweeter. The Ashly crossovers have a built in 20hz high pass filter, thats a good for the 18, I think a 30hz filter was recommended.


Mike Caldwell

Hi Mike - no flames meant, I remember reading saeman and newZenith's threads last year ...

The speakers have a ChargeCoupled replacement for the passive that runs the top 3 drivers (2122/2425/2405),
but it has no passive leg for the 18 inch Bass driver. Thus, the need for the Ashly ...

[Mike Caldwell]

I guess I didn't read deep enough into the messages!

Mike Caldwell

[BMWCCA]

Thanks again, guys and gals. Looks like I may be making a trek over the mountain.

That'd be right after I take a trek six-hours south for a tête-à-tête with my new boss.

[boputnam]

...your work is just beginning. The 4345 is not user friendly. It's performance benefits from careful set-up and knowledgeable system tuning...

Yeah, that had entered my mind, since I'm the third owner in just over two years!

That caught my attention, too.

Imaging is better then any system I have heard to date.

Then, what-up...?

My "new" 4345s have the custom CC networks.

Who built the networks?

David brink.

Not a familiar name to me. Are they to exact spec's?

So why would these be any more problematic than, say, a 4343?

Dunno, but I would expect similar "opportunities" (problems) in getting it right.

Or are you 4345 guys just never happy?

No. From what I know of us, we are certainly a demanding bunch, but once sorted-out, we are amazingly monogamous...

...I remember reading saeman and newZenith's threads last year ... The speakers have a ChargeCoupled replacement for the passive that runs the top 3 drivers (2122/2425/2405)...

I don't recall those threads, off-hand. Was anything changed? Were there any "issues"...?

...I'm the third owner in just over two years!

I suspect that if there is any issue, once it is sorted out, there will be some real enjoyment to be had, and, you got one hell of a bargain.

I'm not back east until May - the tour schedule isn't full but at present doesn't have us around there until then. I'd be happy to run Smaart with you. But, you need to get a GEQ into that signal path - I don't think I saw one in NewZenith's pics...

[BMWCCA]

Not to open old wounds, but if I'm not mistaken, David Brink was previously known here as NoRealTalent and was the original owner of these Riessen reproductions cabinets. I'm told he built the networks using the schematic created by Giskard and Greg Timbers. You might also remember ex-member Steve Gonzalez once referring to Dave as, "my best Friend on the planet and fellow JBL nut".

I'm not privy to the inner working of this site or anything about the "recent unpleasantness" but I do know that as recently as two-weeks ago I was able to find both Steve Gonzales and NoRealTalent in the member section here in order to search for their posts from their profiles. Today they are only listed as "guests", if you are able to find a post attributed to either. Both ex-LH-members are on AK and you can see one of the versions of the networks (and the 4345s in the background) in this thread there: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/sho....php?p=1494601

During the ownership of the last two members, there were component swaps a-plenty, as mentioned on LH and elsewhere. What I have right now are essentially a stock pair of 4345 with respect to the components. Without stooping to repeating rumor and innuendo, or breaking any confidence, I believe the first owner was unhappy in some way with the finish of the cabs (I, on the other hand, am quite pleased with it), and passed them to the second owner who swapped them back and forth with the first owner—as well as some components—until deciding to sell them in preparation for selling the house they were in and possibly returning to school. I have no reason to believe there's anything more to it than that—or possibly the love of the chase. Search for "4345 Bliss" and you'll see that at least the last owner was happy with them as recently as a year ago!

FWIW, the networks that came with the 4345s I bought are these:



Thanks for the offer. Nice to see SMAART is now available for the Mac OS (not that I could afford it). Is a "GEQ" something special in an EQ (excuse my stupidity; I'm trying to learn)? Or will a Soundcraftsmen Pro-EQ-44 third-octave unit work?

[hjames]

Okay, I am confused by all the wires on those crossover boards -
looks like 3 pair in and 3 pair out??

MF, HF and UHF are the outputs, but what are the 3 pair on the other end?

Is there additional circuitry on ancillary boards?

FWIW, the networks that came with the 4345s I bought are these:



Thanks for the offer. Nice to see SMAART is now available for the Mac OS (not that I could afford it). Is a "GEQ" something special in an EQ (excuse my stupidity; I'm trying to learn)? Or will a Soundcraftsmen Pro-EQ-44 third-octave unit work?

[BMWCCA]

Okay, I am confused by all the wires on those crossover boards -
looks like 3 pair in and 3 pair out??

MF, HF and UHF are the outputs, but what are the 3 pair on the other end?

Is there additional circuitry on ancillary boards?

The labeled terminals are output; in this case to a cable terminated in a Speakon for each cabinet since these were run external to the 4345s. Everything was pulled right off the back of the two amps and left marked and connected as is and, since I'm still waiting on delivery of the Ashly (it's only been a week) I haven't hooked it all up yet. I believe (without digging the stuff out of the box) that the un-labeled set of three pairs of terminals are the inputs (from the HF amp) all bridged together, red > red, black > black from the two leads from the amp (blue and white wires).

I don't know if I've ever found the actual schematic for the CC 4345 bi-amp networks, though I've seen it referred to a gazillion times within the huge 44xx threads here. So I don't know how the design deals with the input to the networks, I have only what I have and NewZenith's photo I posted above. If you know where the actual schematic link is for the Giskard-Timbers CC networks, I'd appreciate the heads-up so I can archive it before I lose it again.

[hjames]

I've not seen the Giskard CC 3144/3145 network posted here (it may be, I just haven't seen it) ... I built his 3133 (4333) network and it works great, but the version for the 4 way systems may not be online anymore ...

Oh, my bad - I just realized those extra lines on your crossovers are the feeds to the LPAD board!! Duh!

The labeled terminals are output; in this case to a cable terminated in a Speakon for each cabinet since these were run external to the 4345s. Everything was pulled right off the back of the two amps and left marked and connected as is and, since I'm still waiting on delivery of the Ashly (it's only been a week) I haven't hooked it all up yet. I believe (without digging the stuff out of the box) that the un-labeled set of three pairs of terminals are the inputs (from the HF amp) all bridged together, red > red, black > black from the two leads from the amp (blue and white wires).

I don't know if I've ever found the actual schematic for the CC 4345 bi-amp networks, though I've seen it referred to a gazillion times within the huge 44xx threads here. So I don't know how the design deals with the input to the networks, I have only what I have and NewZenith's photo I posted above. If you know where the actual schematic link is for the Giskard-Timbers CC networks, I'd appreciate the heads-up so I can archive it before I lose it again.

[BMWCCA]

Oh, my bad - I just realized those extra lines on your crossovers are the feeds to the LPAD board!! Duh!

Actually, the output (labeled terminals) go through the cable and Speakon to the L-pads in the cabinet. The "extra" sets are just bridged inputs to the network from the amp.

Seems to me the same result could have easily been accomplished with a single input pair and a bus, but what do I know?

[boputnam]

Okay, I am confused by all the wires on those crossover boards - looks like 3 pair in and 3 pair out??

MF, HF and UHF are the outputs, but what are the 3 pair on the other end?

At first I thought the "others" went 'round and back to the L-pads, but it's clearly not that simple.

Looking at the cropped image (below), I am not certain what is going on. BUT, I am new to this particular issue - I did not track the other threads. (I guess I have some background research to do...).

Not to open old wounds, but if I'm not mistaken, David Brink was previously known here as NoRealTalent and was the original owner of these Riessen reproductions cabinets. I'm told he built the networks using the schematic created by Giskard and Greg Timbers. You might also remember ex-member Steve Gonzalez once referring to Dave as, "my best Friend on the planet and fellow JBL nut".

Interesting assemblage of "nuts". I have no knowledge as to Brink's prior experience(s) nor acumen to build such a network. Anyone know?

During the ownership of the last two members, there were component swaps a-plenty ... the first owner was unhappy in some way with the finish of the cabs ... and passed them to the second owner who swapped them back and forth with the first owner - as well as some components...

My suspicions as to the "problems" begins and ends with the networks.

...will a Soundcraftsmen Pro-EQ-44 third-octave unit work?

Yes, that is a GEQ ("graphic" EQ vs a parametric EQ PEQ). Sorry for my abbreviation...

[Mike Caldwell]

I think the three sets of terminals on the bottom are the inputs for each respective section of the crossover, mid, hi and UHF. They appear to be paralleled together.

I take it the speakon connector is a NL8 to accommodate all six lines.

Mike Caldwell

[BMWCCA]

At first I thought the "others" went 'round and back to the L-pads, but it's clearly not that simple.

Looking at the cropped image (below), I am not certain what is going on. BUT, I am new to this particular issue - I did not track the other threads. (I guess I have some background research to do...).

Interesting assemblage of "nuts". I have no knowledge as to Brink's prior experience(s) nor acumen to build such a network. Anyone know?

My suspicions as to the "problems" begins and ends with the networks.

It's actually quite simple, as I've said: The input from the amp is the blue and white pair. The three pairs of input terminals are simply linked red-to-red, black-to-black and from there there are three separate independent network paths to the three output pairs to the mid, high, and UHF L-pads, via Speakons. The L-pads are in the conventional position behind the pretty 4345 foilcal on the lovely black-ash baffle. Even I can figure that out! If they'd simply run the input to the network on a (+) and (-) bus we'd not be having this conversation. It's the spring-loaded terminals that have you all getting your panties twisted. I'd be happy to compare them to the Giskard/Timbers 4345 CC schematic if someone could provide that link. I'll likely use their nice rubber feet to mount them to the floor of the 4345's inside and rewire them to use simple two pairs of dual-banana posts on the back to avoid such questions in the future. Maybe the idea was to make it easier to quad-amp the system?

The "nuts" are experimenters. That much I get. I've never met any of them personally except NewZenith who himself is an experimenter (compression-driver L250). As for Dave, this is all the clues I can offer: http://www.katzassaudio.com/. I feel certain are others here who could shed more light but may not want to, and I respect that.

I don't anticipate any problem with the cc networks. I've heard them working and I can do a sweep to see what the setup does in my (too small) living room. If I ever build a new house, we'll sweep them again in the new (larger) room.

As I said, I always have the L7s (two pair) if this becomes too much of a job that ruins a hobby. I don't expect that's the case. FedEx says the Ashly should be here Wednesday. I have until then to convince my wife to let me remodel the living room and find storage for the C37s.

[BMWCCA]

I take it the speakon connector is a NL8 to accommodate all six lines.

Neutrik NL8 from Lichtenstein. They carry all eight wires (four pair, including the LF amp).

[boputnam]

...It's the spring-loaded terminals that have you all getting your panties twisted.

I didn't even get to them!

Anyway, have fun! Now I must go find some panties...