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Thread: What to do? Food for thought.

  1. #1
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    What to do? Food for thought.

    1. Free membership in LHF as it is now.

    2. For sale items only allowed in a single, subscription based marketplace forum.
    a. Marketplace is for ALL goods for sale, JBL and otherwise (can be a subdivided forum).
    b. Even posting a link to an ad elsewhere, like ebay, requires a marketplace account in good standing.
    c. Ad posters must be "active" and contribute to the overall activity of LHF, not just marketplace. Active means posting an average of once a week outside of the marketplace. Or it could be posted only through a marketplace moderator.
    d. Members who post ads or links outside of marketplace get suspended first time, banned second time.
    e. Marketplace subscription requires quarterly contribution of $10 and a minimum of 20 posts.
    Out.

  2. #2
    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    With all due respect, allow me to propose that if the point is to keep such information proprietary and available only to LH paying members, that allowing any item-for-sale posts without a charge, but viewing them in a separate membership-only forum might serve the purpose better.

    There may be many here who find great bargains, don't wish to take advantage of them themselves, but still want to pass along the info to their "friends" here. If they don't want to spend the money (you're suggesting $80/year) or the time (x posts per week), to have access to such a for-pay forum, they can still pass along information that some might find valuable here. It might require some cumbersome forum architecture, but the whole concept of a single paid forum probably introduces that already.

    Personally, I don't think the problem is with strippers and flippers looking to this site for info. In this particular case, http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...ad.php?t=23751
    the ad appeared in a freely distributed public trader publication and was available on-line for free to a wide audience likely far beyond what the LH site generates. Maybe even to the contrary, I found that heads-up posting an opportunity for some on this site, who are proximate but had not seen the ad, to pickup a deal on a desirable piece. I was happy to see it posted here.

    I'm not sure what the solution is but I doubt posting such ads here is exacerbating the problem of poaching. A small membership fee for the entire site, small enough not to keep folks out, yet large enough to keep out the one-time price-grabber, could serve the purpose without unnecessarily burdening our casual yet valuable members who might not get around to forking over the big bucks.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMWCCA View Post
    (you're suggesting $80/year) or the time (x posts per week),
    $40 ( 4 x $10)

    Bad math but good points.
    Out.

  4. #4
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Hello Titanium Dome

    1. Free membership in LHF as it is now.
    Yes and feeling is it should stay that way at least for now. This has been bandied about several times and so far we have always come back to a free site donations welcome stance.


    2. For sale items only allowed in a single, subscription based marketplace forum.
    a. Marketplace is for ALL goods for sale, JBL and otherwise (can be a subdivided forum).
    b. Even posting a link to an ad elsewhere, like ebay, requires a marketplace account in good standing.
    c. Ad posters must be "active" and contribute to the overall activity of LHF, not just marketplace. Active means posting an average of once a week outside of the marketplace. Or it could be posted only through a marketplace moderator.
    d. Members who post ads or links outside of marketplace get suspended first time, banned second time.
    e. Marketplace subscription requires quarterly contribution of $10 and a minimum of 20 posts.
    Here what I think and I will answer your bullets.


    A. I for one do not want to set up any kind of paid Market Place Forum. This site is not about selling it's about preservation and appreciation. A paid subscription will not stop a Flipper or keep them out. All they have to do is join and play the game. There is also work to be done that supersedes any issues in Market Place, please read on.

    B. There has never been an issue with links placed by longstanding members to give others a heads up. If you end up with a Jerk-off Seller he's going to be the same Jerk-off no matter where the add comes from or who links it. I have benefited from links placed by other members. I am sure I am not alone.

    C. That I agree with and there is a very simple solution. If anyone comes on the site with 0 posts and drops an add in Market Place or comes asking "What It's Worth" the post gets deleted as Spam and they are banned on the spot. As far as I am concerned that's exactly what it is.

    I just dumped over 500 1-3 post members with that exact same profile. Only posts asking "How Much?" This is by far the simplest and most expedient way to handle these posters for the Moderators. To set up separate user groups based on the number of posts can be probably be done but this is easier. This way it stops them cold and they get the message.

    If they are a junior member they must have at least 25 posts in the other Forums to post an Add in Marketplace.

    D. Longstanding Members are exempt as are Juniors with over 25 posts. Same as B.

    We have stuff brewing in the back-round that obviously you don't know about. Don, Mr Widget, 4313B, Boputnam and I have all been working on a temporary solution to adding more scanned material to the Library. We just got the FTP site back up thanks to John Nebel and are looking to add a new forum called The Library Annex to upload all the scans we have received but have been unable to put up because the Library has been "broken". It is going to work the same way as the Technical Reference Section so it will be Read Only but available to all. We have a lot of prep work needed to accomplish this.

    I would much rather put time into this endeavor. Adding to the Library is as I see it the most important thing we can do that adds real worth and value to the site. Many of these scans are years old and it is long overdue. If all goes well within a month or so we will have the new Forum added and begin uploading these scans. Once we get the older material up we will be looking for new material. That will be a couple of months down the line depending on how quickly we can load what we have.

    That is where I feel our energy and time should be devoted. I don't want to add more Administration duties when I feel our time could be better spent elsewhere and in a way all Members can benefit from.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  5. #5
    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Adding to the Library is as I see it the most important thing we can do that adds real worth and value to the site.
    And thank you all for that. I've always found the library and tech info to be invaluable resources. I'd love to contribute whatever I have.

  6. #6
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    Would it help to have a few more moderators or assistants for specific forums that could spread the load of dealing with new posters/members or other issues?

    I really appreciate the time and effort that is going into creating the Library Annex and fixing other broken areas of the site. It's obviously a task that's hard to coordinate and implement quickly.

    If other seasoned and appropriately chosen members were available as assitant moderators, it could free up your resources and time. Or if you need, we could help out with specific tasks that you could delegate to us...JBL Go-fers's.

    As for the options TD has suggested, I like the AudioKarma model myself. They have a generally free site and forums. However, for those so inclined, they also have "Subscriber" status which costs a nominal yearly fee. For that, you get more PM's, more community/social options, and access to subscriber only forums that are useful options. All sites that use Vbulletin also have private forums that can be accessed only by invitation or some other qualifying event. (I'm sure you guys know all this already).

    The reason I like that model is if you're going to get something out of the site that is beyond its original mission (preservation and information sharing), then the site benefits by getting support through those "premium" or subsription forums. Subscribers are identified with a banner under their name indicating they have decided to pony up the support and are proud of it. The newbies can see that easily when viewing posts or can read a sticky in every forum about it. It would give them incentive to be part of the community and of course we'd encourage honest questions outside of valuation and selling as initial questions. The qualification level of posts should be a decently high level to truly let other members see the thinking/posting pattern of the new member.

    Also, new members should be subject to moderation review of all posts before being allowed up on the site. That way, mods can review content and advise the new members to re-review the rules and regs of the forum, especially when it comes to the $$$ and for sale/shill type posts.

    Although the LH forum is meant, I think, as a large library type resource and gathering area for like minded enthusiasts, it still is a private endeavor and requires periodic maintainence. Asking for reasonable support from members is, I believe, a reasonable option, especially when it has provided so much valuable information and likely saved some money (at least on the initial purchase - probably cost us a lot more once we bought the damn things!! ). Also, if the "flippers" want to play the game and become subscribers, well, they can be subscribers if they pay for the privilege - I don't see that as a problem. You can control access, you can't control or regulate their personal behavior except in what they post and what they can get to in the subscription forums.

    We are all guests here in the LH site. Guests are and should be subject to the rules and regs of the site as the owner, admins, and mods set forth. I agree that those rules should be tightened up somewhat regarding $$$ value posts and forum viewing options.

    My 0.02 and hope that helps with the discussion.

    Bart
    When faced with another JBL find, Good mech986 says , JBL Fan mech986 says

  7. #7
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Doug, I don't see why it is necessary, nor that it is a good idea.

    It seems to me that requiring fees to post items for sale, or to post seeking items of interest, here, will merely wean out marginal sellers/buyers. We might lose postings to other sites, and thereby miss the item/opportunity.

    I think any manner of required fees has proven itself to not be our model. Our truly interested members support this place. Others visit, benefit from the info and either move in, or move on...

  8. #8
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    In the end, I guess it doesn't matter. The sooner that old stuff gets stripped out and redistributed the sooner the worst of it will be gone. As I write this, it's a mystery to me why I should care in the first place. I'm not buying any of it, and I shouldn't be concerned if those who profess to love it aren't concerned.

    Sorry to get you all riled up.

    This thread could be closed.
    Out.

  9. #9
    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium Dome View Post
    In the end, I guess it doesn't matter. The sooner that old stuff gets stripped out and redistributed the sooner the worst of it will be gone. As I write this, it's a mystery to me why I should care in the first place. I'm not buying any of it, and I shouldn't be concerned if those who profess to love it aren't concerned.
    Nothing wrong with a thoughtful discussion and civil discourse. We all wish there was a way to make sure all legacy systems went to appropriate homes, at reasonable prices, with stripping as a last resort. If only wishing made it so.

  10. #10
    RIP 2013 Rolf's Avatar
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    I think it is GREAT that the forum is a non paying forum. Sure, if we (the most users) surly will pay a fee to use it, but then we will not get the new posters asking (sometimes) silly,for us questions. Who will pay a fee just to ask a question? If it was me, the first time a asked a question, I would left the forum, seeking answer elsewhere.

    No .. Those of us that really like this forum, and have been members, lets say from 2006 can be "ordered" to make a fee.

    I send this message to Don, like to hear what he has to say.

    I will gladly pay a fee to a member.

  11. #11
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolf View Post

    I will gladly pay a fee to a member.
    Are you saying that you have never made a donation to this site?

    I had assumed that most regular posted at least made a minimal voluntary donation. I typically drop $50 a year in the jar... seems about right to me. Some do less and some have contributed many orders of magnitude more...


    Widget

  12. #12
    RIP 2013 Rolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Are you saying that you have never made a donation to this site?

    I had assumed that most regular posted at least made a minimal voluntary donation. I typically drop $50 a year in the jar... seems about right to me. Some do less and some have contributed many orders of magnitude more...


    Widget
    Yes, I have made donations to the forum. (Not sure, but about $300 or so) Not as much as I would like to do, but I find it a little difficult to donate, from where I am. A account number would be much easier for me. Then I could just transfer some money to the account. Don't like PayPal or other stuff. Just an account number.

  13. #13
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Sorry, I must have misunderstood your post. I agree PayPal is a pain... and I hate giving them the cut, but the system we have requires us to use them.


    Widget

  14. #14
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Seems like AK moderators expend a lot of time and energy policing the site for links to disallowed sales resources that belong in their "Dollars & Sense" forum.

    Same with flippers. There's a group of them posting "Are these any good and what are they worth?" threads on just about anything unfamiliar that shows up on their local CraigsLists. Mods have to review all of those for prohibitted content. Discussions of value are also not allowed in the main forums, but they've apparently all but given up trying to control that....

  15. #15
    JBL 4645
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    Good read Rob, well done hope its up soon to delight the funfair of JBL Altec members as an invaluable, indispensable resource of technical information.


    Will there be more JBL cinema information to drool over.

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