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Thread: replaced my 2420 + 2344A with 2435 + PT-H1010HF

  1. #16
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Hello Frank

    Here's what it looks like in Leap. One is just with a 6 ohm load Green. The original in Red and a Cap leg repositioned in Blue. Well have to run too much to do with the holiday. If I don't get back have a nice one.

    Rob
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  2. #17
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank23 View Post
    BTW I am a "high end" follower with class A amps, high end cd/da and carbon interlinks etc. Not from the "another 500W is better" school.
    OMG!, you mean to say you actually listen to this stuff?!

    I am not sure you'll be able to get the quality of sound out of the parts you are using... you might succeed with some work. I have heard variants on this theme at Zilch's place and never thought they quite made the grade for the, "Not from the "another 500W is better" school."


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  3. #18
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    My results were considerably better sounding once I abandoned the pursuit of comping them flat to 20 kHz, and just let them roll off in the VHF, as Giskard suggested. That came with using a modified version of the Timbers filter, elsewhere documented in this forum.

    It's been over a year since I worked with these; I'm confident I could do a more competent job of it now, and that it would be a worthy pursuit....

  4. #19
    Senior Member frank23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf57 View Post
    Okay...now I got it. So, does the STF problem decrease without the HF compensation?
    The STF's decrease in volume slightly when taking out the hf compensation, but not in the sense that they are not there. I don't know exactly how to put this as I am not a native English speaker, but taking away the compensation does not take away the problem, it only lowers the volume of it slightly. It wasn't there with the 2420/2344 combi.

    Frank

  5. #20
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank23 View Post
    It wasn't there with the 2420/2344 combi.
    I know exactly what you are saying... when over at Zilch's place every time he would go back to a pair of LE85s from one of the 2431s or whatever, I had a similar feeling... the top end is simply lighter and more delicate sounding with the LE85/2420. There was a hard quality at Zilch's that I heard with every 243X driver on every horn. As he has mentioned, Giskard and others did suggest lowering the SPLs up top, but that is only a magnifier... the underlying problem is still there.

    The Array 1400 does have a similar HF driver, however it does sound good, so I think if you dial in the network and use the right horn you can make these things sound good... I just don't think it is easy.


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  6. #21
    Senior Member frank23's Avatar
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    Well, it looks like my crossover and the 2435/PTwaveguide are not too incompatible. The overall level is a few dB too high compared to the 2420/2344 combination, but I can hear "through" that to assess the 2435/PTwaveguide sound. It definately has the pace, but is also a little too rough for my taste.

    As Mr. Widget is saying, there might be something about the 2420 that the 2435 just cannot do?

    To make things even more insane at my house, I just carried my 2440 / 2382 combination from the second floor [I know, I have too many driver/horn combi's, but there is more!] and hooked them up to the same crossover.

    The overall level is a few dB lower than the 2435's and the high's are not there, but the sound is sweeter again. These 2440's have JBL titanium diaphragms though, not the aluminium originals. I'll listen to them for a few days and see what I think.

    Frank

  7. #22
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    I would dump the compensation or modify it. It is making a broad peak in the response worse as well as increasing the driver level at 10-15K. You have a peak about 2 octaves wide from what I see with LEAP. That very well could be what you are hearing. You may want to try and notch out that 4-8K peak in the response possibly leaving the comp in. These drivers have different mass break points so the compensation won't be the same.

    Rob
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch View Post
    My results were considerably better sounding once I abandoned the pursuit of comping them flat to 20 kHz, and just let them roll off in the VHF, as Giskard suggested. That came with using a modified version of the Timbers filter, elsewhere documented in this forum.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch View Post
    It's been over a year since I worked with these; I'm confident I could do a more competent job of it now, and that it would be a worthy pursuit....
    Most likely.

    *****

    Like I posted years ago, the 243x drivers do not behave the same way as the 242x drivers. Once you get them dialed in they sound quite nice. In fact, it really takes a 476BE or TAD to top them.

    The 242x/2344 combination is a tough one to beat, JBL reiterated that a few years ago.

  9. #24
    Senior Member frank23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4313B View Post
    The 242x/2344 combination is a tough one to beat, JBL reiterated that a few years ago.
    ? I am curious, can you please explain?

    Frank

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank23 View Post
    ? I am curious, can you please explain?
    We were sitting around one day talking about horns and we started ranking them. The 2344A ended up third from the top. That was a few years ago.

    The biggest gripe with the 2344A/242x was the "small" 1.75" diaphragm. It just doesn't have the steam that the 3" and 4" diaphragms have. The consensus was that the "low" 1 kHz crossover frequency of the 4430/4435 was pushing it. For normal volume levels it works just fine though.

  11. #26
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Here it is with a single notch filter in place added to the filter with compensation.

    Rob
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  12. #27
    Senior Member frank23's Avatar
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    ok, I have found some formulas and simulated a compensation circuit after the crossover for correcting for the 6.000Hz centered +5dB level for the 2435

    it seems to come to a series circuit of a coil of 0.15 mH, a capacitor of 5 uF and a 1.21 Ohm resistor [where the resistance will of course partly be the resistance of the coil]

    this series circuit will be placed in parallel to the existing 1.21 Ohm resistor

    rob, is it possible for you to enter this in your simulation software? I have entered it in mine [microcap], and it looks ok, but I am not too sure about my work here...

    Thanks, Frank

  13. #28
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Here you go, the R value is the coils DCR.

    Rob
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  14. #29
    Senior Member frank23's Avatar
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    thanks!

    frank

  15. #30
    Senior Member frank23's Avatar
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    hmm, that compensation looks too narrow, what values did you use in your simulation to get the brown line?

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