L300 found a new home

[Croc999]

Greetings to everybody from the Holly Land

My name is Gennady (nickname Croc) and this week I got myself L300 loudspeakers

For last 3 years I was listening with Klipsch La Scalas – which were moded by adding JBL 2404H tweeters, a simple enclosure bracing, xover refresh and going back to simplest xover layout (Type A).
Powered by El34 single ended amp and paired with REL Stadium sub they sounded very good

But when a good friend offered me to trade my being used very little Rogers LS3/5 monitors and Rogers AB1 subwoofers for pair of JBL L300 I got tempted and eventually accepted the offer.

So what did I get?
A pair with "Monitor L300" label s/n’s 22194+22195, not perfect but reasonable cosmetic condition, clear crystal tweeters (with a blue wire inside), reconed and refoamed woofers, grills with new fabric and not too bad condition frame, only one midrange lens (from T200), quite high plinths were added to raise L300 from the floor and reduce a bass boom.

La Scalas were moved to the back of room to free up the main spots for the Newcomers.

Impressions so far (comparing to my moded La Scalas of course)(I’m listening primary to jazz, with some classics, blues and rock):
- 9 watt is not enough…..

- my trusty HK Citation II was called to action to grab those beasts……
Tweeters are reaching higher, a bit more detailed.

- Midrange is clearer and more detailed.
More natural – I mean less colored.

- Bass is much lower.

- Cabinet resonance is rarely heard.

Now to the bad stuff :
- Dynamics, although is very good, still doesn’t reach La Scalas “explosive” dynamics. Especially in micro dynamics.
Although it seems to me that in Klipsch it was exaggerated – still I got addicted to that.

- La Scalas enclosure wood coloration made most of the instruments sound so real and believable…..

- The sound is a bit smaller. La Scalas produced huge midrange, huge stage. Again – not realistic at all, but very addictive…..

- Bass sometimes is a little boomy, boxy and a bit restrained – no much to horned bass effortless and immediacy. But I will continue to play with speakers’ position – hopefully this will improve.

So what do you thnk?

Some questions:
1. What those s/n’s mean? What year are they?
2. I hate those back wire connectors and I want to replace them.
I would go for something not flashy:

Anything I should know about connectors replacement?

3. what about midrange lenses? I see at ebay that original ones cost 200$-250$ a pair.
Are those T200’s do the same job?
shall i get only one missing T200 type?

BTW - what those lenses do?

4. any maintenance/components refresh advise?

5. I want to get glass top plates – what kind/color of foam should be under the class?

Gennady

[mech986]

Hello,

Very nice trade! Although I am a big fan of the LS3/5a and AB1 combination (I'm the moderator of the Yahoo! LS3/5a newsgroup), you have a very different pair of speakers now to deal with.

Here's some observations and comments for you.

1. The L91/2308 acoustic slant lenses from the L300 or L200 are used to provide dispersion characteristics to the H91 horn/LE85 mid driver. Without them, the sound is quite beamy and will lack sufficient overlap to provide more soundstage. Consequently, you are not yet hearing the L300 approaching its best. Now Imaging is not its strong point due to the very wide baffle and the normal floor placement, but you might get a bit more by continuing to use the plinth lifts and angle the speaker in somewhat. The horn mid without the lenses may sound a little harsh so experiment with the presence controls to taste.

2. The room that you have your speakers placed in may be adding to the bass bloom due to side wall boundary reinforcement. However, it doesn't look like the speakers really can be placed closer to each other either. Consider adding some acoustic damping material (heavy fabric/blanket wall covering to either side or floor) to reduce bass reinforcement.

3. Dynamics on this speaker may be impaired by the use of lower powered (less than 50 watts) of tube power. As good as these speakers can be with tube power, they really come alive with clean, strong higher power solid state amps with good damping factors to control the woofers well. Typically, use at least 100 watts / channel to power these speakers if you can.

4. Connector - use any type of Binding posts you like but be sure to space the holes either for 3/4 inch spacing or use the original holes and separate posts. Also make sure that all holes left over are sealed.

Bart

[Doc Mark]

Hey, Croc,

Welcome to LH!! You will see that there are quite a few of us that still love those L300's of yours! Yes, newer designs have eclipsed their performance, which is as it should be. But, the L300's are still a wonderful and very impressive speaker, and I love mine.

Bart has made some excellent comments regarding what you need to consider about your L330's. Definitely get the proper lenses for your midrange horns. Makes a big difference in sound and in dispersion.

As far as dynamics, our L300's are extremely dynamic, and do well with all types of music. They sound life-like and natural, and are capable of blowing the glass out of our place, if we wanted them to do that! We use an 100 watt per channel amp to drive them, and so far, that's been just fine. The only time it was not enough was when I played a new digital recording of the 1812 Overture. When the cannons kicked in, I had it a bit too loud, and the amp clipped, and went into it's protection mode for a brief moment!! But, for everything else, I find 100 WPC to be just fine.

Have fun with your L300's! They were top of the line, back in their day, and are still quite wonderful in many ways!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

P.S. Someday, we wish to visit the Holy Land, and it's outstanding that you live there!! Talk about history!! WOW!!

[Tom Brennan]

Croc---I doubt you can match the dynamics of the LaScalas, direct radiating single 15s are hard pressed to match a basshorn in that regard. However you should be able to get excellent dynamics with enough power.

The L-300 always sounded a bit lumpy and "dead" to me in the lower mids and bass, perhaps you're having a similar reaction.

[Croc999]

Some more pictures for you.

[Croc999]

Thx for replys,

Bart,
i love those Rogers.
Also they're far from be perfcet they have some strong points - and what they do good they do it spectacular.
in current room they had quite big bass boom and i couldn't get rid of it.
After La Scalas it was hard to go back to boxy bass and limited dynamics.
at the end of the day they stood 2 years unconnected....

Regarding L300 dynamics:
First of all HK Citation is very strong amp.
It moved my former Sonus Faber Cremonas, which go as low as 2.2 ohm, whithout a hitch.
It's much stronger than "modern" KT88 amps - as far as i know it's primary due to its iron and high feedback design.

"To blow the glass out of the place" is not what i'm looking in dynamics.
this usually happens due to high bass dynamics.
most of good speakers do it easily.
i'm more into mid and treble dynamics - those La Scalas made me addicted to that.
L300 are not bad in this region - but still no match to 104DB sensitive speakers.

My room is already treated - all corners are completely covered with thick fiberglass panels.

I will look to get midrange lense and give myself more time to judge deeper.

So - shall i get one more T200 type lense or 2 "original" L300' lenses?
they look very similiiar but still a bit different......

BTW - what is L330's sensitivity?

Gennady

[demon]

hello gennady!

congratulations to your new speakers -and also your old ones!
would love to hear them both, i always liked the old and mean klipsches.

so how long do you have the l3oo's yet? because i would never judge a speaker (with this reputation) before i would have listened to it for some weeks. i mean, this is old news i know, but maybe you just have to adapt youself a little to the new ones to fully value and finally compare their sound to the klipsch, to choose your future system.
man, i would like to have your choices....
...your room looks great too!

hope to read more soon,
cheers--
mikey

[JBLRaiser]

Thx for replys,

Bart,
i love those Rogers.
Also they're far from be perfcet they have some strong points - and what they do good they do it spectacular.
in current room they had quite big bass boom and i couldn't get rid of it.
After La Scalas it was hard to go back to boxy bass and limited dynamics.
at the end of the day they stood 2 years unconnected....

Regarding L300 dynamics:
First of all HK Citation is very strong amp.
It moved my former Sonus Faber Cremonas, which go as low as 2.2 ohm, whithout a hitch.
It's much stronger than "modern" KT88 amps - as far as i know it's primary due to its iron and high feedback design.

"To blow the glass out of the place" is not what i'm looking in dynamics.
this usually happens due to high bass dynamics.
most of good speakers do it easily.
i'm more into mid and treble dynamics - those La Scalas made me addicted to that.
L300 are not bad in this region - but still no match to 104DB sensitive speakers.

My room is already treated - all corners are completely covered with thick fiberglass panels.

I will look to get midrange lense and give myself more time to judge deeper.

So - shall i get one more T200 type lense or 2 "original" L300' lenses?
they look very similiiar but still a bit different......

BTW - what is L330's sensitivity?

Gennady

I am using a Dynaco Stereo 70(35 wpc tubes) on the horn, Dynaco ST=400(200wpc solid state) with a 6sn7 tube based preamp to run them.
I have used just the 400 in a single amp setup, just the 70 in a single amp setup and this bi amp setup has worked the best. All you do is disconnect your woofers from the passive network, leaving your mids and horns connected. Wire them to a big solid state amp and connect both amps into your preamp, using available connections or using a y adapter for both RCA cords.
An active crossover setup is my next attempt, which will separate the crossover point more accurately.
I get much better control of the bass with a damping factor of 15 from the 400 and it frees up the tube amp to apply its' power directly to the horns/tweeters without sharing with the power hungry 15's.
From the looks of your room, turning up the volume is not an option. What you want is clarity and detail with bass. Bi amping helps to give you this. Nice Citation!!!

[Croc999]

once again about the lenses - i see two types which are a little bit different.
"newer" JBL 2308 / L91 and "older" type with wooden support.
are they both OK for L300 or one of them is a preferred?

[Paul D]

I haven't seen them with wooden supports. The older lenses had holes for mounting but you can mount them with velcro. They also had 2 extra support straps on the fronts. The older ones are heavier than the newer ones but there is no difference in sound.

[mech986]

once again about the lenses - i see two types which are a little bit different.
"newer" JBL 2308 / L91 and "older" type with wooden support.
are they both OK for L300 or one of them is a preferred?

Newer all plastic lenses were the ones that came with the L200 and L300 models as well as the 43xx series of studio monitors. They attached with velcro - one side glued or adhesive to the lense, one side to the baffle (usually the fuzzy side).

The older type on a wooden support were used in the Olympus/Sovereign/Apollo models primarily and a few others from the 60's and early 70's. They were usually screwed in by the supports. You could adapt these to the L300 if needed but it wouldn't look quite right.

Check the library here for the L300 and the brochure will give you a nice picture of it.

Bart

[doodlebug]

In that size room, the L300s should be producing some excellent sound even without the lenses _if_ they are currently up to spec. That is, if the drivers are in good condition.

Also, what has been done to rebuild the Citation II? I have one that will compete with any amp produced today once it has had its power supply rebuilt, the bias supply rebuilt and the coupling caps replaced - aka, McShaned.

Very nice setup.....

Cheers,

David

[macaroonie]

Have you checked that the drivers are all connected in the correct phase according to the crossover network diagram? If these are old / second or third owner the previous owner/s may have put something back the wrong way round.
Worth checking if you have not already done so.
Good luck. Mac

[Croc999]

Also, what has been done to rebuild the Citation II? I have one that will compete with any amp produced today once it has had its power supply rebuilt, the bias supply rebuilt and the coupling caps replaced - aka, McShaned.

David,
My Citation was McShaned and trannyes painted black.
i own it for about 4-5 years and i don't see letting it go

thank you all for you comments on lenses - i ordered a set of "new type" L91.

I'll check phases of drivers connection when i install new terminals (already ordered).

is it possible to tell by serial numbers (s/n’s 22194+22195) what year / version are they?

[robertbartsch]

Missing dynamics - it is funny that you mentioned this.

For 30 years, I ran a set of Altec VOTT speakers (15" woofer and compression driver and horn) that had GREAT dynamic range. When I acquired several JBL legacy and new JBL Professional Series systems recently, I have had the SAME reaction on the lack of dynamics.

The frequency response and sonic accuracy of the JBLs is a hands-down winner but the dynamics between the softest and loudest passages is not nearly as good as the Altecs.

Anyway, one distintion in my case is that the old Altecs had a VERY high efficency rating producing close to 100db with 1 watt at 3 feet or so. Most JBLs are around 95db I beleive.

Anyway, the best thing you can do now is dump the low-powered tube amp and buy a VERY big amp. I have a few of these amps now and they make a big difference. My favorite monster amp is a Crown XLS 800D which pumps 500WPS into 8 ohm loads while running ice cold with the factory fans disconnected. New, they are about $400-$500.