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Thread: SUB: 2235H vs 2242H?

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    Senior Member Doc Mark's Avatar
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    SUB: 2235H vs 2242H?

    Morning, All,

    Yesterday, I posted a few questions in a thread that Peter posted here, regarding subwoofers. I decided to move the basic questions into their own thread, so that more folks might see them, and I would appreciate your thoughts on them, please.

    Yesterday morning, I ran performance graphs on what I might expect to see from the 2235H, and the 2242H, when used as a subwoofer. I've been trying to decide what to do in order to add a tiny bit more bottom end to our system, especially with watching movies with cannon fire, and other such stuff! After looking at the graphs, it most certainly appears that the 2235H, in a proper enclosure, should out-perform a 2242H, all other things being equal, at least in bass extension.

    So, the main questions are these:

    - What is the advantage, if any, of using a single 18" JBL 2242H as a subwoofer vs a pair of JBL 2235H's? In his thread, Peter wrote that he had just acquired a "new" subwoofer, which contained a single 2241H, and that it "sounded nearly identical to my B460". 2242H and 2241H are very similar, aren't they? Hummmm...............??????

    But.......

    - Won't a pair of 15's out-perform a single 18?

    - Won't the 15's be more nimble than the 18, being a bit smaller, with less mass?

    - Won't a pair of 15's move more air than a single 18?

    Thanks for your thoughts on this, Friends. I know that some of you find this kind of stuff old hat, but I'd rather ask, then just "suppose and assume". Take, care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
    The only thing that can never be taken away from you, is your honor. Cherish it, in yourself, and in others.

  2. #2
    Obviously... not a golfer grumpy's Avatar
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    consider displacement and power handling over diameter.

    then consider how low and how loud. 2242 will move a -lot- of air.

    also might check Xmech-limit on the units you're comparing... on the
    2235 I seem to recall it not being a lot more than Xmax (which is more
    like a 10% THD spec if I understand how it's used).

    comparo of 4435-twin 2234 complement vs 2245 has been discussed/
    debated/opinion-o-fied... should be search-able.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Mark View Post
    Morning, All,

    Yesterday, I posted a few questions in a thread that Peter posted here, regarding subwoofers. I decided to move the basic questions into their own thread, so that more folks might see them, and I would appreciate your thoughts on them, please.

    Yesterday morning, I ran performance graphs on what I might expect to see from the 2235H, and the 2242H, when used as a subwoofer. I've been trying to decide what to do in order to add a tiny bit more bottom end to our system, especially with watching movies with cannon fire, and other such stuff! After looking at the graphs, it most certainly appears that the 2235H, in a proper enclosure, should out-perform a 2242H, all other things being equal, at least in bass extension.

    So, the main questions are these:

    - What is the advantage, if any, of using a single 18" JBL 2242H as a subwoofer vs a pair of JBL 2235H's? In his thread, Peter wrote that he had just acquired a "new" subwoofer, which contained a single 2241H, and that it "sounded nearly identical to my B460". 2242H and 2241H are very similar, aren't they? Hummmm...............??????

    But.......

    - Won't a pair of 15's out-perform a single 18?

    - Won't the 15's be more nimble than the 18, being a bit smaller, with less mass?

    - Won't a pair of 15's move more air than a single 18?

    Thanks for your thoughts on this, Friends. I know that some of you find this kind of stuff old hat, but I'd rather ask, then just "suppose and assume". Take, care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc

    Well, if you would like to try, I wouldn't be adverse to trading a pair of 2235s for the two 2405s I saw in one of your pics.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Doc Mark's Avatar
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    Hey, Guys,

    Thanks, very much, for your thoughts on my questions. Much appreciated!

    Grumpy, I'll do some searching on the things you suggested and see where all that went.

    Todd, thanks, very much, for the offer, but in the same photo with the 2405's, you may recall seeing a pair of 2235H's, too! So, I'm all fixed up in that regard, as my L300's have 2235H's, too, and I dearly love them! I'm not much of a "trader", in any case, and usually keep my JBL stuff, "just in case I should ever need it"!

    Since I already have a pair of 2235H's, and my 2242H, and since I have those 4333 cabinets that Grumpy sent my way (thanks, Grumpy!), I will just go ahead and build an 8ft3 box for the 2242H, do the work on the 4333 cabinets to make them useable, and see which subwoofer sounds best to me. Time is the problem, and the onset of winter, up here in the mountains. It would be great to get all this done soon, but I fear that it will have to wait until the New Year. Fun, nonetheless!! Thanks, again, Gentlemen, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
    The only thing that can never be taken away from you, is your honor. Cherish it, in yourself, and in others.

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    Senior Member Doc Mark's Avatar
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    Hi, All,

    From what I've just read, Drew Daniels posted plans for a four-subwoofer system, using the 2242H in each one. Unless I've done it wrong, it looks like he used an 11.39ft3 box for these woofers, too. Hummm...... I wonder what he used for a tuning frequency? Does anyone know? More food for thought, that's for sure. I can't even IMAGINE a home system using FOUR 2242H subwoofers, though!!! YOWSERS!!! Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
    The only thing that can never be taken away from you, is your honor. Cherish it, in yourself, and in others.

  6. #6
    Obviously... not a golfer grumpy's Avatar
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    Looks like he targeted low freq and traded off some efficiency
    (tuning in the 24-25Hz range), a bit of power handling,
    and tolerated a bit more group delay below 30Hz...

    Something near a -6dB extended bass shelf alignment.

    For inside use, I think I'd target a smaller box and let the room help...
    But I haven't built it, so this is just so much bench-racing.

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    Senior Member pmakres1's Avatar
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    Doc,
    You didn't specify in the other thread that you thinking of using TWO 2235H's....you simply said that graphs indicated that the 2235 was the better performer. So, to me, it appeared we were talking one driver vs. one driver. Using double 2235H's would certainly put a different spin on things. But, it appears you've made your decision...and I think it's a good one. I don't think you can go wrong with a single 2242H in an 8 cu.ft. enclosure. You'll have sonic bliss, I am sure!

    Peter
    L220A's w/B460; 4313B's w/2241-based Sub; 4401's w/ES250

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    Senior Member Doc Mark's Avatar
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    Evening, Pete,

    Thanks, very much! Sorry I didn't specify two 2235H subwoofers. Got carried away, I guess! But, yes, I do have two more 2235H's and also those 4333 cabinets, which are about 5.5 FT3, if I recall. Should make very nice subwoofer cabinets, if I choose to use them that way. But, as it stands, I don't think there is any going back, and since I do have that "like new" 2242H, I am going to HAVE to give it a try!

    There are so many conflicting opinions out there, not only as to IF the 2242H will sound any good as a subwoofer, but also in what way it should be used, that it can be more than a little confusing, to say the very least!!! So far, I've had recommendations for 8, 9, 10, and 12 FT3 cabinets! But, your experience with your new subwoofer, using that same transducer, is what really motivated me to go ahead and settle on a basic 4645C enclosure. I'll go ahead and tune it as JBL has done with the original, and see how it actually sounds in our system(s). Then, I will also use that extra pair of 2235H's, inside the 4333's, and see how I like having two 15's as a pair of subs, rather than one 18.

    In fact, one system that I really want to try is a 5-way JBL system! This would be comprised of a single 18" sub + separate cabinets, each with a 15 + 10 + compression driver/horn + 2405 tweeter. I plan to electronically cross over everything except the 2405's, which will have passive networks. That system lies down the road, someplace, but it's fun to have the goodies to actually make it, eventually!!

    As always, Pete, thanks, very much, for your enthusiasm, and for your advice. Much appreciated! As I've said before, if I ever get down your way, I'd love to meet up and to hear your systems. I'll be sure to drop you a line, if we end up being able to make trip in your direction. Take care, Merry Christmas, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
    The only thing that can never be taken away from you, is your honor. Cherish it, in yourself, and in others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Mark View Post
    There are so many conflicting opinions out there, not only as to IF the 2242H will sound any good as a subwoofer, but also in what way it should be used, that it can be more than a little confusing, to say the very least!!!
    Opinions don't matter in this case, the driver will only do what it can do. It's pretty straightforward. Like I said before, the 2242H is not a high compliance driver like the 2245H is so it requires much less physical volume to do what it does. The Vas of the driver is only something like 9 or 10 cubic feet whereas the Vas of the 2245H is a whopping 29 cubic feet. Forget about WINISD if you are serious about flogging this to death, at least pick up a copy of BB6P so you can get a more three dimensional view of what is going on. JBL uses the 2242H (correctly) in the 6 and 8 cubic foot boxes. The 12 cubic foot box mentioned works better for a 2245H. I really don't understand what the confusion is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Mark View Post
    This would be comprised of a single 18" sub
    You'd do better with two fifteens in separate boxes than a single eighteen. Single subwoofers really aren't the best solution. That was learned very early on with the original L212 system some 30+ years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Mark View Post
    From what I've just read, Drew Daniels posted plans for a four-subwoofer system, using the 2242H in each one. Unless I've done it wrong, it looks like he used an 11.39ft3 box for these woofers, too. Hummm...... I wonder what he used for a tuning frequency? Does anyone know?
    The port is 8" I.D. by 15.5" long and the box is a 29" O.D. cube. The tuning frequency with typical fill is ~ 23 Hz.

    One could add in all the bracing and the driver displacement time permitting to get greater accuracy. Or one could just use the Classical box calculations on the assumption that the fiberglass is going to negate the displacement of the bracing, driver and ducted port. Until one has built a few dozen boxes and actually measured the gross and net effective volumes as well as tuning frequencies and box loses one doesn't have a full appreciation for what is going on.
    Attached Images Attached Images     

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    2242H is RED and 2245H is yellow. 12 cubic feet is huge to a 2242H and tiny to a 2245H.

    Note the more gentle group delay of the 2245H in that volume. Some people argue that group delay that low doesn't matter, others argue that it does. You'd probably have to hear both for yourself to come to your own conclusion.
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    The biggest drawback to the 2235H compared with modern subwoofer transducers is its limited xMech. Think about its original design goal - a well balanced woofer in two, three and four way loudspeaker systems (the second biggest drawback is probably the foam surround so keep some spares).

    In the B380 it works quite well though, especially with the protection of the BX63/BX63A.

    For typical home use the old 2235H and 2245H are arguably better choices. That's not to say that someone wouldn't be perfecty happy with an S1S-EX, S1S or 4645 running the 2242H. The S1S is part of the Synthesis line. Note that the intended "modern replacement" for the old 2245H is the 2269H.

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    Senior Member Doc Mark's Avatar
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    Morning, 4313B,

    HOLY MOLY, CHICKEN SOUP!!!

    That is some presentation, Sir! Thanks, very much, for that offering!! Yes, from our last conversation on all this, I most certainly know that 12 cubic feet is not the best for the 2242H, but when I found that Drew used them in his systems, that sort of threw me for a loop, and I thought, "well, if HE did it, then it must be pretty good, instead of pretty bad"! I wonder why he chose that particular woofer for his system, when he could have used the 2245H? Any ideas? Was he seeking more output, rather than sonic perfection? Compromise? Hummm...

    I can see that the BB6P (is that Bass Box 6 P?) smokes the free junk I've been using on the 'net! However, does it run on Macs, and if so, what operation system does it need? I will have to check that out, and see what it can offer for Mac users. I can see, from the outstanding stuff you posted, that, if it will work on our Macs, this is a fantastic tool for box building, and it answers just about every single question, other than "how does it sound?" . I'm sure it won't be inexpensive, for that kind of comprehensive offering, but if it runs on our Macs, then I'll definitely have to put that on the list of "must have" goodies!!

    To me, this is rather all like the recent conversation on the Array 1400. It would certainly be nice to be able to hear a 2242H sub, compared to a 2245H sub, and then KNOW which one I prefer. However, as I've said, more times than probably needed, since I already have the 2242H, that's what I'll go ahead and use. If I do it right, I can always swap out that woofer for a 2245H in the future, and retune the box. Also, since I already have the pair of 2235H's, and also the 4333 boxes, that is the path of least resistance, and that's probably what I should do first.

    As soon as my long list of home repair, painting, plumbing, tree-felling, and other duties, is at an end, this is what I'll do first. It's looking like true Winter will not be upon us, up here in the mountains, until after Christmas, this year. That's good, too, as it offers a larger window of box building, which must be done outside. Good stuff, all around.

    Thanks for the tip, and the outstanding examples, on BB6P! I'll check that out, and see if Santa might have one lying about that he can bring. I've been "good".............. well............ I've been "acceptable"......... well.......

    Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
    The only thing that can never be taken away from you, is your honor. Cherish it, in yourself, and in others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Mark View Post
    That is some presentation, Sir! Thanks, very much, for that offering!! Yes, from our last conversation on all this, I most certainly know that 12 cubic feet is not the best for the 2242H, but when I found that Drew used them in his systems, that sort of threw me for a loop, and I thought, "well, if HE did it, then it must be pretty good, instead of pretty bad"! I wonder why he chose that particular woofer for his system, when he could have used the 2245H? Any ideas? Was he seeking more output, rather than sonic perfection? Compromise?
    Ask him. My understanding is that he did use the 2245H in his first version and then updated to the 2242H. It was the only viable replacement at the time as far as I know. The 2269H was years off. The 2242H handles tons more power and works better in multiples with boundary reinforcement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Mark View Post
    It would certainly be nice to be able to hear a 2242H sub, compared to a 2245H sub, and then KNOW which one I prefer.
    I know, so you just start building and doing because that's the only way you will know. The rest of us had to. I've been there and done that, many, many times. Your turn.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Mark View Post
    since I already have the pair of 2235H's, and also the 4333 boxes, that is the path of least resistance, and that's probably what I should do first.
    Now you're thinking!



    Honestly though, I really don't care what size boxes you put your drivers in. What works for me may not work for anyone else. What I like most about BB6P though is that it cranks out a very reasonable implementation without all the muss and fuss of days of old. It's a nice tool.

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    Senior Member Doc Mark's Avatar
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    Hi, 4313B,

    Good points, all, and well taken! In fact, I did send a note to Drew, and asked him about using the larger enclosure with the 2242H, rather than the 8FT3 4645C box. So far, I haven't heard back from him, but still hope he will respond, when he gets the time.

    n any case, thanks for your always good thoughts on all this. Living up here in the mountains, with no garage, and no place to actually do my box building, it must be done in the asphalt driveway. Lots of sap, pine pollen, sand, and other detritus, make doing a project like speaker enclosure building, something that must be planned out, and is still dependant upon our weather up here. Back when I used to do quite a bit of box building, I had a nice two 1/2 car garage, and could work on projects, and come and go, without having to put everything up each time. Someday, we hope to add a nice big garage to our property up here, but that is still years off, I'm afraid. So, until then, I will "make do", and make the best of it. Thanks, again, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
    The only thing that can never be taken away from you, is your honor. Cherish it, in yourself, and in others.

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