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Thread: My New Westlakes

  1. #31
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Pachkowsky View Post
    The design calls for crossing over at 400hz. I admit that is quite high.


    400Hz sounds perfect to me... why take the 2122H down any lower?

    The questions I have are regarding the very narrow band that they are using the TD-2001 in... 1.8KHz to 8.5KHz... I am sure that it is due to limitations of the smith style horn. Too bad really, if they used a different horn, they could push that super tweeter up much higher and crossover from the 2122H much lower, but I suppose without a smith style horn it just wouldn't be a Westlake. It would appear that even a company like Westlake isn't immune to marketing based decisions.


    Widget

  2. #32
    RIP 2014 Ken Pachkowsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post


    The questions I have are regarding the very narrow band that they are using the TD-2001 in... 1.8KHz to 8.5KHz... I am sure that it is due to limitations of the smith style horn. Too bad really, if they used a different horn, they could push that super tweeter up much higher and crossover from the 2122H much lower, but I suppose without a smith style horn it just wouldn't be a Westlake. It would appear that even a company like Westlake isn't immune to marketing based decisions.


    Widget
    Point taken Widget. I'll go one step further. A good argument could be made to eliminate the 2403 all together. This is the same horn used in the BBSM 15 which uses a Tad 2001 as well. My point is, I sure never noticed any "severe" roll-off on the BBSM 15. Most people can't hear passed 15k anyway. Heh, sure would be nice to eliminate the 2nd Deqx and amp .

    I ran my old HR1's for almost a month 3-way (only 1 Deqx) and although it was noticeable......most would have never known.

    Anyway, we could find fault with almost everything if we try hard enough.

    Ken

  3. #33
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Pachkowsky View Post
    Heh, sure would be nice to eliminate the 2nd Deqx and amp .
    Since there are no internal networks to bypass, I would absolutely give it a try with the 2403 out of the circuit... one less amp, one less crossover point... I do not think the TD-2001 will really reach 20KHz, but then as you point out, you may not hear that high up anyway. Since you are using DEQX, you can certainly EQ to compensate for any roll off the horn may have.


    Widget

  4. #34
    Senior Member gerard's Avatar
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    2 woofer 12 " !!!

    I thouhgt I read for physical reason only a large woofer can go really down and give real bass .

    Can you get the same quality with 2x12" as a 2235 ?

    Gerard

  5. #35
    RIP 2014 Ken Pachkowsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerard View Post
    2 woofer 12 " !!!

    I thouhgt I read for physical reason only a large woofer can go really down and give real bass .

    Can you get the same quality with 2x12" as a 2235 ?

    Gerard
    I think it would all depend on the design of the driver ie: subwoofers come in all sizes.

    They sure don't lack on the bottom end.

    Ken

  6. #36
    Senior Member gerard's Avatar
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    Hi ken

    if it was so simple , we would only find speakers with small drivers , we will put our 434x or 250 Ti to the trash , my wife would be very happy and I will have no project for speakers ...

    I believe the greatest difference between Cd and Lp are harmonics ( and nobody talks about it ) , Cd does not have so much harmonics !

    May be the same for large and small woofer ?????

    gerard

  7. #37
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerard View Post
    Hi ken

    if it was so simple , we would only find speakers with small drivers , we will put our 434x or 250 Ti to the trash , my wife would be very happy and I will have no project for speakers ...

    I believe the greatest difference between Cd and Lp are harmonics ( and nobody talks about it ) , Cd does not have so much harmonics !

    May be the same for large and small woofer ?????

    gerard
    There are pros and cons to everything. 12in woofers and subwoofers are said to be faster in response time, less mass to move, and less inertia to stop after signal has passed, so 12in drivers can result in a faster, snappier sounding bass.

    IMO, there are fantastic sounding designs, using 15in or 12in drivers, it comes down to an individuals preference and likes!
    scottyj

  8. #38
    RIP 2014 Ken Pachkowsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott fitlin View Post
    There are pros and cons to everything. 12in woofers and subwoofers are said to be faster in response time, less mass to move, and less inertia to stop after signal has passed, so 12in drivers can result in a faster, snappier sounding bass.

    IMO, there are fantastic sounding designs, using 15in or 12in drivers, it comes down to an individuals preference and likes!
    Could not have said it better..

    Ken

  9. #39
    Senior Member gerard's Avatar
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    Still I can see a difference between 14"-15" and 18" !

    What are the best 14" available woofer Jbl or not able to compete Le14 or better , I'm interested !

    Gerard

  10. #40
    Senior Member vernb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerard View Post
    Still I can see a difference between 14"-15" and 18" !

    What are the best 14" available woofer Jbl or not able to compete Le14 or better , I'm interested !

    Gerard
    I have LE1400h and 1400PRO (neodynium). For LF the LE1400h is better, but for midbas/midrange the 1400PRO is better than any 12", 14" or 15" I have ever heard. They really are tighter, clearer and more dynamic than anything else.
    Vernb

  11. #41
    Senior Member Valentin's Avatar
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    Muchas felicidades Ken


    Regards from mexico city


    Valentin

  12. #42
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Pachkowsky View Post
    The design calls for crossing over at 400hz. I admit that is quite high.
    It struck me as so - not because of the woofer limitations, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post


    400Hz sounds perfect to me... why take the 2122H down any lower?
    ...because I don't think I want a crossover point at 400Hz. Yuck. I'd prefer it lower, leaving that portion of the band pass unperturbed by any chance of phase problems, etc. I'd prefer that point be as low possible - I guess that's why I'm found of how JBL handled it in the 4345, crossing at 290Hz...

    Too often I think "many" design or speculate on crossover points based almost solely upon mechanical parameters, without sufficient acknowledgement of where these are impacting the frequency response and how deleterious that might be. Crossover points are not friendly areas...

  13. #43
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boputnam View Post
    ...because I don't think I want a crossover point at 400Hz. Yuck. I'd prefer it lower...
    Very good point! I was simply basing my comment on the limitations of the 2122H... a slightly higher crossover could help it out, but you are spot on... every crossover between ~300Hz and 10KHz is a potential problem.


    Widget

  14. #44
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    every crossover between ~300Hz and 10KHz is a potential problem.


    Widget
    Gee, you just described almost every speaker system on the planet!

    Oh, well, back to Lowthers, I guess! NOT!

    scottyj

  15. #45
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    limitations of the 2122H
    Like its smaller 8-inch cousin the 112/2108, the 10-inch 2122 can be used all the way down in its small subenclosure. JBL used the 112/2108 down to ~ 70 Hz in the L212 and ~ 400 Hz in the 4315. As previously pointed out by Bo JBL used the 2122 down to ~ 290 Hz in the 4344/4345.

    The biggest limitations of the driver are its short voice coil resulting in a very small xMax based on distortion as opposed to mechanical constraints (xMech) and its foam surround. Under high drive levels the higher crossover frequencies would probably be preferred.

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