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Thread: Full HF with 2-way 2245, 2445?

  1. #16
    Senior Member Hoerninger's Avatar
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    Considering the linear dimension of the cone it will radiate up to about 270 Hz without divergence.
    For frequencies well above it depends very much on the manufacturer how he can control the behavior of the cone and the distribution pattern. And +44% area is a lot.
    ____________
    Peter

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikebake View Post
    Apparently you haven't listened to a 2245H at 500hz.
    Can produce output at 500hz is not the same thing as sounds good at 500hz.
    For sure I knew that my very special wisdom will arouse furious antagonism by common wisdom. I gave the hint that the papers on 2226/2245 would fortify my thoughts. Audio is in the end about facts. If You don't care, what shalls?

  3. #18
    Dis Member mikebake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mini View Post
    For sure I knew that my very special wisdom will arouse furious antagonism by common wisdom. I gave the hint that the papers on 2226/2245 would fortify my thoughts. Audio is in the end about facts. If You don't care, what shalls?
    Special wisdom? Do you mean "special purpose"?
    Wait a minute; Romy, is that you?
    Anyhows, mini, back to facts; you've heard the 2245H at 500 hz? That would be a yes/no question, not a "special wisdom" question.

  4. #19
    Dis Member mikebake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mini View Post
    For sure I knew that my very special wisdom will arouse furious antagonism by common wisdom.
    BTW, the really freaky thing is, that is EXACTLY what my most succesful pickup line from the late 70's was! Amazing!

  5. #20
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Re: 2245 @ 500Hz

    Quote Originally Posted by mini View Post
    Audio is in the end about facts.
    I agree... fact is the 2245 just plain won't sound particularly great at 500Hz.

    Maybe I missed your meaning again. I realize that English isn't your first language so I'll have to give you the benefit of the doubt. As a physicist who enjoys empirical evidence, you can't possibly be saying what it seems you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikebake View Post
    BTW, the really freaky thing is, that is EXACTLY what my most succesful pickup line from the late 70's was! Amazing!



    Widget

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Maybe I missed your meaning again. I realize that English isn't your first language ...
    Hi, You don't miss a thing Audio gear can not be judged by subjective listening -tests- as they are common with audio amateurs. The question here is: would a 2245, given an optimized systems justify caveats against its usage up to 500Hz? Audio amateurs regularly fail to provide an "optimized system". The listening experience that for includes a deep impact from imperfections regarding system design, listening setting, involves prejudices and temporal temper.

    For simplicity I talk back in form of a question: Did You ever do a so called listening test of 2245 and 2360 with 2445 in an optimized system by yourself? My assumption is 'no'. At least it would have not been optimized So, what if I take Your argumentation against You - how do You know that 2245 won't do in that combination? All the talks above are about rough estimations and derivations from common wisdom. When it comes to a special design they all are useless. In that I agree with Your ansatz.

    by

  7. #22
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mini View Post
    For simplicity I talk back in form of a question: Did You ever do a so called listening test of 2245 and 2360 with 2445 in an optimized system by yourself?
    No, I haven't done it by myself or with the help of others either. (Sorry cheap shot.) Over the many years of my audio experimenting I have done enough other stupid things including some not too dissimilar from your proposal that I know better than to waste my time on this proposed combination. (I am assuming that a high fidelity playback is the desired result... I suppose if the goal was something other than that, then the combination might possibly make sense.)

    Quote Originally Posted by mini View Post
    Audio gear can not be judged by subjective listening -
    Then what is the point? Ultimately what sounds good to an individual is the criterion by which the component is judged... I suppose that if one is enamored by shiny red paint and the component features that finish that could be a biasing point, but how well a component measures is ultimately irrelevant to most audio consumers if they are not happy with the actual aural experience.


    Mini, I am afraid I will cease giving you the benefit of the doubt. I am going to assume you are bored and want to argue for the sake of arguing. Have fun, I am done trying to communicate with you.



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  8. #23
    Senior Member Ducatista47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mini View Post
    Hi, You don't miss a thing Audio gear can not be judged by subjective listening -tests- as they are common with audio amateurs. ... Audio amateurs regularly fail to provide an "optimized system". The listening experience that for includes a deep impact from imperfections regarding system design, listening setting, involves prejudices and temporal temper.
    I am sorry, but that is the least intelligent statement I have ever read about the purpose of designing an audio reproduction system. Measurements can be very useful in designing a system, but the goal is to produce an "optimized system" that sounds optimum to human listeners. That is exactly why high fidelity audio reproduction exists.

    Your statement would only make sense if measuring instruments designed audio playback systems for their own "listening." Anyone with any real world experience has found that systems that measure well rarely sound lifelike to listeners. A nice point to begin a design with, but a result that does not sound convincing.

    I can only conclude after reading all your posts here that you either have no experience listening to really good music reproduction, or you are indeed an argumentative troll. Either way, please learn to tell the difference between what measures well and what sounds good, or stop posting such nonsense here.

    Everything you have said so far has only proved your ignorance, and repeating it will only reinforce that perception.

    Maybe this will help with the language barrier. No one is saying you are stupid. Ignorance, on the other hand, means lack of knowledge, not knowing something. It works like this:

    1)Information is not knowledge
    2)Knowledge is not wisdom

    I am sure one of our other German speaking members can translate that for you.

    Clark
    Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
    Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears


  9. #24
    Member mini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    No, I haven't done it by myself ...
    So, You miss Yor own requirement regarding qualified judgement in this case. You personally have no aural experience with the 2245 within a 2-way system comprising the given components.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    ... but how well a component measures is ultimately irrelevant to most audio consumers if they are not happy with the actual aural experience.
    A designer obviously can't lend an ear to a new system, before it's build up. To some degree his has to justify his decissions by raw data rather than to treat himself with the precious hardware in spe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Mini, ... I am done trying to communicate with you.
    Sorry. I would say to the OPs query:
    "Give it a try - if You could afford a full size horn for the 2445! Listen Yourself when finished, as it's up to You in the end."

    Mr. Widget, we are pretty close in that, aren't we? Listening to the build up system will help a lot. May be it's the only possibility to assess the design.

    With compliments

  10. #25
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    2-Way

    Quote Originally Posted by robertbartsch View Post
    I like things that are simple - like 2-way systems that have large woofers and compression drivers.
    Haven't you been reading Zilch's adventures?

    LE14H-x and a 2452H-SL on a waveguide of your choice.

    Done.


    If all you have are some 2245H's and 2445H's laying around then just bolt them all together and see what happens. They couldn't be much worse than some of the other things I've seen here. Do what Zilch does, put the 2245H's in some 4645 boxes, lay the 2445H's on top and give the mess a listen. Then give everyone here a thumbs up or thumbs down report. It's pretty much that simple.

  11. #26
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Mini-Me,


    http://www.jblpro.com/pages/components/2245h.htm

    While on paper it may appear to operate up to 2 khertz this is a bit of a one dimensional view of the driver performance in actual use.

    This woofer is designed for sub woofer applications and if you care to read those recommendations usage above 80 hertz is not recommended.

    I would therefore ask why use this driver in a condition that it was not designed for when there are far better alternatives.

    I have heard this woofer operating at 500 hertz crossing over to a mid cone and I prefer a lower crossover point as do most people you use this driver.

    To speculate about the use of a horn down to 500 hertz which is at the practual bottom limit of most large format drivers and horns and run a large woofer up to beyond its optimum crossover point is not the most brilliant way of getting the best result even for SR applications.

    I would suggest your time is better spent over on AK as your vocation here based on recent behavours is not remotely useful to this audience.

    Please spend some time reading over in the JBL Library to familiarise yourself with the Lansing Heritage before contining with any further half baked debates about everything you know nothing much about.

    Your attitude only serves to insult those who enjoy visting this site.
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  12. #27
    Heather [Senorita member] hjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mini View Post
    For sure I knew that my very special wisdom will arouse furious antagonism by common wisdom.
    ...
    Audio is in the end about facts.
    No, actually its about the music, its not about facts ...
    "Facts" aren't listening or buying much gear these days!

    As famous composer and music critic Peter Shickele says

    "If it sounds good, it IS good!

    Unlike yourself he is a proven knowledgable fellow ...

    Shickele links:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Schickele

    http://www.schickele.com/

    http://www.metafilter.com/63136/Schickele-Mix-RIP

    And many many others ...

    What joy have you brought YOUR would-be audience, Migi?

    You've merely proven you are indeed an argumentative troll -
    please go somewhere else where you and your cat are appreciated ....
    2ch: Oppo, JoLida 502CRC, JBL L212, 18ti,240ti; Heath AS101, Von Schweikert VR4
    7.1: Oppo BDP103D, B&K, UREI 809A, JBL B460

  13. #28
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    http://www.spectrumaudio.com/2370A.htm


    I have a couple of these horns that I could use with the 2425.

    So the sytem would be this:

    Low = 2245
    Mid/low = 2206
    High = 2425
    Horn = 2370a

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    ... care to read those recommendations usage above 80 hertz is not recommended.
    Isn't it 800Hz? And, what do You take into account when estimating to what a frequency a driver could/should be used?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    ... there are far better alternatives.
    It seems to me that the 2245 have to be used obligatory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    I have heard this woofer operating at 500 hertz crossing over to a mid cone ...
    That's not the setting discussed here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Your attitude only serves to insult those who enjoy visting this site.
    I think the point is: You ran out of arguments and start personal flaming to prevent from thinking over Your familiarized system of beliefs.

    My attitude is in no way insulting. My only crime is, I gave a suggestion You didn't assent.

  15. #30
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    What joy have you brought YOUR would-be audience, Migi?
    I believe this says it all for me. Even if his info is correct or his ideas "new" can't get by the 'tude. Enough don't feed the trolls!

    Mark
    Think center channel for 250TIs; (2) 108s, a 104 and a 44ti, now what?

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