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Thread: "drop-in" OK for 250ti ?

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    RIP 2021 SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    "drop-in" OK for 250ti ?

    is this a drop-in for classic 250ti ?

    and

    what would I gain besides "bi-ampability" ???
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    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    That's biwire not biamp. It might be a TBQ which is not the same crossover as the L250ti with the buss bars. It should work only issue could be the differences in the tweeters network. 044ti vs 035ti

    Rob
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    RIP 2021 SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    Rob ...thanx, I dont have experience with the newer variations and didnt know from whenst it camest... guess I'll pass, since the 044ti is doing just fine and no need to swap it out.. It also seems to have fewer profile choices than the "buss bars"

    seemed interesting that it is marked "internally wired with Monster cable"
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    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    So why does the seller think these crossovers are worth $400? I realize it's a make-an-offer auction but really!
    I'd like to have the bus bars on these thought, since they fit the L7.

    And, Robh, why aren't they bi-amp? If you remove the buss bar you're separating the low-frequency speaker from the rest of the system, just using the internal crossover. Same as the L7. Pull the bar, run two amps, and you're bi-amping. Bi-wiring is keeping the straps and running two wires, for whatever reason I've never figured out. (Yeah, I read the theory.)

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    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    just using the internal crossover
    That's not really biamping. To truely Biamp you need an active crossover to split the signal. What you are doing is running both amps with fullrange signals to drive the crossovers. When you do this you don't get the advantages of removing the passive network, and reducing the load on the amps.

    Rob
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    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    That's not really biamping. To truely Biamp you need an active crossover to split the signal. What you are doing is running both amps with fullrange signals to drive the crossovers. When you do this you don't get the advantages of removing the passive network, and reducing the load on the amps.
    OK . But it has to have some advantage over just bi-wire, right? If I use one 200wpc amp for the low end and one 200wpc amp for the upper three drivers, is it absolutely no difference than if I'd just run one 200wpc amp bi-wired into both pairs of terminals? Does the crossover sap all he power that would have gone to the other driver set anyway? Or since there's no actual driver load other than the crossover, does it take some duty away from the amp? Probably off-topic for the thread but I'm curious.

    Thanks.

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    BTW they do not fit w/o modifications. Screw holes do not line up and additional material is needed to fill the hole, they are not as big. It was a real PIA and not worth the effort except the new one were charge coupled. Since they aren't they same I can not really compare them exactly (original TI to TIBQ CC)

    Mark

    When researching the 250 speaker before purchase It was suggested that the original TI XO was the highest quality or at least that was the way I understood it
    Changing to Legacy Audio and started with a Silver Screen HD for my center between the 250TIs

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    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMWCCA View Post
    Bi-wiring is keeping the straps and running two wires, for whatever reason I've never figured out. (Yeah, I read the theory.)
    But didn't get it, apparently.

    You remove the straps for biwiring, also.

    One wire caries the highs, the other the lows.

    If you believe in the wire thing, you use the particular type best suited to the appropriate frequency range....

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    If I have the straps off and only hook up 1 side I only hear from the that side (the 14 or the other 3 drivers) so if I do this w/2 amps instead of a single amp wouldn't this be a a true biamp??? Or does biamp have to have active XO to make the definition of biamp?

    Does biamping this way do any improvement to sound quality (other than the same as adding a sub letting the drivers not work as hard analogy)or just let me add more power? IE 200 on bottom end 200 on top compared to 400 strapped?

    Thanks

    Mark
    Changing to Legacy Audio and started with a Silver Screen HD for my center between the 250TIs

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    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch View Post
    But didn't get it, apparently.

    You remove the straps for biwiring, also.

    One wire caries the highs, the other the lows.

    If you believe in the wire thing, you use the particular type best suited to the appropriate frequency range....
    Yeah, I read about skin-effect, etc. But I think I misstated my question using clumsy verbiage. I meant to ask (and edited the post above) if using two 200wpc amps with each channel feeding one pair of speaker inputs has no advantage over bi-wiring with one 200wpc amp? Do the amps see same load running full range into a passive crossover which dead-ends the HF as it does running full-range bi-wired into both HF and LF speaker input pairs?

    I also question why bother to remove the straps if you're only bi-wiring with one amp and both pairs of wires are carrying full-range signals? They're bridged at the amp output anyway and so it would seem both are carrying that unwanted treble modulation anyway? If simply bi-wiring cuts down on the intermodulation, then why aren't those same advantages achieved in passive bi-amp mode? Or something like that.

    Oh, and thanks for taking the time to beat this into my reluctant brain!

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    Moderator hjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by opimax View Post
    If I have the straps off and only hook up 1 side I only hear from the that side (the 14 or the other 3 drivers) so if I do this w/2 amps instead of a single amp wouldn't this be a a true biamp??? Or does biamp have to have active XO to make the definition of biamp?

    Does biamping this way do any improvement to sound quality (other than the same as adding a sub letting the drivers not work as hard analogy)or just let me add more power? IE 200 on bottom end 200 on top compared to 400 strapped?

    Thanks

    Mark
    Yes, you have to have the active crossover involved to get the benefit of bi-amping.
    On my system pulling the jumper means the low side terminals on the speaker go directly to the 2235 woofer - no other components in that path. The woofer amp gets just the low-lows (below 290 on my system) from the active crossover's low-split and that low-only signal goes to just the woofer. That way the woofer doesn't have any significant signal above 300 hz, and the woofer plays just what it does best.

    Same thing with the high-split fed to the high side amp and the hi leg of the speaker system - it doesn't have to handle all the energy of bass note ... sound on the high side of the speaker is cleaner.
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    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    Yes but . . . bear with me, please!

    I may have to start a new thread on this subtlety to expect a clear answer. At least from the standpoint of what penetrates my stubborn artistic brain. I was trying to determine the difference between bi-wiring and bi-amping specific the the L7s. Zilch (and the L7 supplement) say toss the jumpers for both. But if you're running both wire pairs off the same one pair of amp outputs, is the only benefit gained in bi-wiring simply the ability to use different types of wire for highs and lows? While they may be split at the speaker, they are certainly joined at the amp so both get the same amp output. The amp probably doesn't much care. It's not like the lows aren't being fed to the "high" wires, too. So what's with the intermodulation theory if the speaker wire "circuits" shares the same bus?

    In the L7 bi-amp mode, which uses the L7 crossover's LF-cut circuit to shunt the input and feed only that materal below 180Hz to the 12", does the amp supplying the LF still "waste" power pushing everything above 180? Conversely, does the other amp supplying the HF section with three drivers "waste" power pushing signal below 180Hz to the HF section? Or is the amp power-draw based on what those speaker "motors" ask for on demand in electromotive power to convert it to kinetic energy? If I turn up my amp but connect no speakers, is the amp seeing a load? Infinity? When in bi-amp mode on the L7, are the components of the passive crossover eating up that power that would go to the unused frequency range and making the amp see a load that perhaps dissipated in heat energy, like an incandescent-lamp dimmer? Certainly an amp is producing whatever frequencies are being sent to it by the source, but if a tree falls in the woods . . .?

    Obviously an active crossover is dealing with low line-level signal and a passive is dealing with high speaker-level signal. But does a 200wpc amp see the same load when bi-amping the L7 only below 180Hz with the straps off as it does when it runs direct through the whole crossover with the straps in place? It seems like that's what's being said here.

    I'm not an engineer but I can draw a line connecting two points. It would seem the jumper wire inside the L7 crossover by-passes the LF crossover-point completely for true bi-amping using an active crossover (though that's not clear to me in the schematic). But is there no benefit to using the passive crossover in bi-amp mode with two amps beyond whatever gains are enjoyed in bi-wire mode using one?

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    Oh no, once again I agree with BFDH,,, so then, what IS the reason to "bi-wire" ??

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    Moderator hjames's Avatar
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    Okay - I checked the schematic for the L7 Speaker
    http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Te...et/L7%20ts.pdf

    It looks like pulling one jumper leaves a portion of the crossover network between the Lo-F terminals and the woofer. If you pull the second jumper,
    the only thing left in the LOF circuit is the woofer and L1 inductor.

    In BiWire Mode I'm guessing this functions as a Low Pass network and effectively filters high frequency signal from reaching the woofer when used in that mode.




    Quote Originally Posted by BMWCCA View Post
    Yes but . . . bear with me, please!


    In the L7 bi-amp mode, which uses the L7 crossover's LF-cut circuit to shunt the input and feed only that materal below 180Hz to the 12", does the amp supplying the LF still "waste" power pushing everything above 180? Conversely, does the other amp supplying the HF section with three drivers "waste" power pushing signal below 180Hz to the HF section? Or is the amp power-draw based on what those speaker "motors" ask for on demand in electromotive power to convert it to kinetic energy? If I turn up my amp but connect no speakers, is the amp seeing a load? Infinity? When in bi-amp mode on the L7, are the components of the passive crossover eating up that power that would go to the unused frequency range and making the amp see a load that perhaps dissipated in heat energy, like an incandescent-lamp dimmer? Certainly an amp is producing whatever frequencies are being sent to it by the source, but if a tree falls in the woods . . .?

    Obviously an active crossover is dealing with low line-level signal and a passive is dealing with high speaker-level signal. But does a 200wpc amp see the same load when bi-amping the L7 only below 180Hz with the straps off as it does when it runs direct through the whole crossover with the straps in place? It seems like that's what's being said here.

    I'm not an engineer but I can draw a line connecting two points. It would seem the jumper wire inside the L7 crossover by-passes the LF crossover-point completely for true bi-amping using an active crossover (though that's not clear to me in the schematic). But is there no benefit to using the passive crossover in bi-amp mode with two amps beyond whatever gains are enjoyed in bi-wire mode using one?
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  15. #15
    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hjames View Post
    Okay - I checked the schematic for the L7 Speaker
    http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Te...et/L7%20ts.pdf

    It looks like pulling one jumper leaves a portion of the crossover network between the Lo-F terminals and the woofer. If you pull the second jumper,
    the only thing left in the LOF circuit is the woofer and L1 inductor.

    In BiWire Mode I'm guessing this functions as a Low Pass network and effectively filters high frequency signal from reaching the woofer when used in that mode.
    According to the L7 supplement, neither bi-wiring or bi-amping require removing the internal jumper, but only the external ones at the input terminals. The internal blue wire is (according to the L7 designer) supposed to be moved when used with an active crossover: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...&postcount=152

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