Line Conditioners

[elwood127]

Hey all, I may be preaching to the choir but here goes. I just read a thread in the "Amp" section telling of the amazing difference in sound quality when using a conditioner. I took the "Trip lite" unit off my pc and hooked it up. I gotta tell you, the clarity difference is significant. At low volume it's completely clear and bright. If you haven't got a line conditioner you're missing out. LHF is a wonderful thing.

[jcrobso]

I believe in a good surge suppressor, they are very necessary.
Any time in my life that I have scoped the AC line all I have ever seen is a pure sine wave. One time I plugged in an electric drill to the same plug that I was scoping and turned on the drill, all I saw was the AC sine wave. John

[tom_h]

I plug the TV and stereo into a power conditioner and both are improved. My hearing may not be as good as younger folks and you could argue that my hearing an improvement in sound is off track, but seeing a better picture on tv is conclusive. There is something going on with line noise and a power conditioner does filter it out.

Keep in mind that a surge protector may not do any filtering or maybe very little filtering, so an experiment with a pure surge protector may not be the last word on possible improvements.

That said, I got my power conditioner from someone selling their unit at a deep discount, so maybe they felt it was not doing anything and was a waste of money. Powerline noise may not be a problem for everyone but it seems like a lot of people have problems and get help with a unit like this. YMMV, but do give it a try as the results are easily seen/heard. I am happy with the results I got.

[BMWCCA]

Do you suppose something like this would kill many birds with one stone?

No affiliation, just interested:

https://www.carvinguitars.com/produc...product=AC120S

The AC120S Power Conditioner/Sequencer is a universal AC distribution control center that is capable of five major functions: (1) 10 stage microprocessor controlled SEQUENTIAL power-up, (2) 10 AC outlets/stages, (3) Voltage spike protection, (4) LED tube rack lighting, and (5) Pure Power dual EMI/RFI AC line filtering. Without question, the AC120S is the most advanced and comprehensive unit providing protection, while making the AC voltage operation of your rack more controllable and failsafe. No rack should be without the AC120S.

[jcrobso]

It can sequence up the preamp/mixer first then the power amps. For a home system I would not have any problem using this unit.
You watch the line voltage drop on the LCD display when you crank you system up. John

[hjames]

well, this is like the Adcom unit I just added to my system ...
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...&postcount=147

Adcom ACE-515 AC Enhancer, equipment sequencer

basically claims to have all kinds of line filtering and protections, plus - it has 2 major AC outlets for my power amps, and a number of minor ones for lesser gear (Accessories). Has a light power cord for "sensing" that I plug into the switched outlet on my receiver (used as preamp).

When I power up the receiver, it nearly immediately powers on the accessories outlets (Ashley crossover), and 10 seonds later, it powers on the JBL Power amps.
When I power DOWN the receiver, it immediately powers down the power amps, then, 30 seonds later, it powers down the accesory outlets.

Foolproof!

[scott fitlin]

Me, I may like a good line conditiooner for the front end of my system, preamp, EQ,s, xovers, but my amps stay plugged directly to the outlet. MOST consumer grade, low cost line conditoners actually take away from amplifier performance, as many amps draw alot of current, and plugging your amplifier into a device that has a transformer, or other line filtering components can tend to cause a lag time, or not be able to deliver enough current to the amp, especially if your using high power amps that draw alot of AC power.

The audible effects of this are softening of the dynamics, and thinner sounding bass.

There are line filtering devices that ARE up to the task of delivering high current to high power amps, and generally, the VERY GOOD ones, the ones that may really work, are EXPENSIVE! VERY!

There is one thing I DO know works, Equitech balanced power. This type of line filtering converts 120v AC to 2 legs of + and - 60 volts, with ground, excatly like the theory behind balancing audio interconnects.

They have small rack mount devices, and complete, commercial wall unit breaker panels up to 200 amp capability. Again, cost will dictate what one will do, and how far they go!

IMO, you should try one, something in the price range your willing to spend, take it home for a week, and give it a go, before you just buy.

[Mr. Widget]

There is one thing I DO know works, Equitech balanced power. This type of line filtering converts 120v AC to 2 legs of + and - 60 volts, with ground, excatly like the theory behind balancing audio interconnects.

Furman makes a 20 amp version for around 2 grand... it is outstanding... but it is 2 grand. That said, some people spend that kind of money on wire. I am sure this is more likely to give you an audible improvement and it certainly will give you outstanding protection from lightning etc.


Widget

[scott fitlin]

Yes, That Furman came out a while ago, but the Equitech balanced power is still better to my ears, and Furman also has a 30 amp version too.

But, you see the difference in price from the $125.00 Furmans to this?

ALL utilty power has transient spikes, as high as 5000v, and your power company can put a transient surge suppressor on your homes electricity, right where it enters your home, COVERS YOUR ENTIRE BUILDING, not just your system!

Lightning arrestors are also available, and DO NOT HAVE TO COST $2000 to have quality protection!

When It comes to this, I had problems several years ago, had a professional leave a Dranitz Blue Box with chart recorder on all 3 phases of my service, with a professional analysis of my incoming AC, this was a professional service and cost a few dollars, but, THIS company will tell you exactly whats goin on or coming in to your breaker panel! Noise and harmonics analysis too.YES, there are harmonics present in AC power too.

NY,s Con Edison has a Power Quality dept, they can have lightning arrestors, transient surge protecgtion, and harmonics, and noise filtration put on your AC service, and believe it or not, utility companies gear is as good, if NOT better, than THE BEST consumer grade devices available. Their boxes may look ugly, and utlitarian, but, you won't see it at your service main, and the equipment they have, is the BEST that can be bought! BELIEVE THAT, as THEY can spend more than us, and NOT sweat it.

Equiteh has 20 and 30 amp units, rack mountable, and freestanding available, check out their gear, www.equitech.com.

Also, interesting to note, is PS Audio,s Power regeneration plants! These devices take your walls AC, convert it DC, then resynthesizes clean, pure perfect sinewave 120v AC, AND allows the user to change the line frequency, as some find their systems sound better with 120v, 90hz, as opposed to the standard 60hz, even allows you to go up to 400HZ. Not recommended to have devices plugged into it, if you change line frequency, that require the 60hz frequency for motor servos to operate correctly, i.e.; turntables, CD players, tape decks. I had the original PS Audio Power Plant unit, its like an amplifier, and did make a difference, BUT, got too hot, and would thermal out, had to return it. They have since resolved these problems, and have nice units available, also pricey! www.psaudio.com.

[hjames]

But, you see the difference in price from the $125.00 Furmans to this?

ALL utilty power has transient spikes, as high as 5000v, and your power company can put a transient surge suppressor on your homes electricity, right where it enters your home, COVERS YOUR ENTIRE BUILDING, not just your system!

Lightning arrestors are also available, and DO NOT HAVE TO COST $2000 to have quality protection!

When It comes to this, I had problems several years ago, had a professional leave a Dranitz Blue Box with chart recorder on all 3 phases of my service, with a professional analysis of my incoming AC, this was a professional service and cost a few dollars, but, THIS company will tell you exactly whats goin on or coming in to your breaker panel! Noise and harmonics analysis too.YES, there are harmonics present in AC power too.

NY,s Con Edison has a Power Quality dept, they can have lightning arrestors, transient surge protecgtion, and harmonics, and noise filtration put on your AC service, and believe it or not, utility companies gear is as good, if NOT better, than THE BEST consumer grade devices available. Their boxes may look ugly, and utlitarian, but, you won't see it at your service main, and the equipment they have, is the BEST that can be bought! BELIEVE THAT, as THEY can spend more than us, and NOT sweat it.

Equiteh has 20 and 30 amp units, rack mountable, and freestanding available, check out their gear, www.equitech.com.

Also, interesting to note, is PS Audio,s Power regeneration plants! These devices take your walls AC, convert it DC, then resynthesizes clean, pure perfect sinewave 120v AC, AND allows the user to change the line frequency, as some find their systems sound better with 120v, 90hz, as opposed to the standard 60hz, even allows you to go up to 400HZ. Not recommended to have devices plugged into it, if you change line frequency, that require the 60hz frequency for motor servos to operate correctly, i.e.; turntables, CD players, tape decks. I had the original PS Audio Power Plant unit, its like an amplifier, and did make a difference, BUT, got too hot, and would thermal out, had to return it. They have since resolved these problems, and have nice units available, also pricey! www.psaudio.com.

Sure - when I worked with Cable TV Montgomery, and now with that gov't agency, we use Leibert Power Conditioners/UPS Systems.
These things are high level conditioners - the mains go into them, they are constantly charging internal batteries and such, and the entire room of equipment is connected to their output. When there is a brown-out, ripples or power-drops, the outputs are unchanged.

Absolutely required to protect 64 channels of sat receivers, modulators, fiber optic transmitters and such. Absolutely required for a room full of blade servers, and all the related telecom gear ...

But way outta my league for home listening ...

[scott fitlin]

Hospitals also have serious mega buck line conditioning, and UPS, and bak up generators, too.

While Leibert is SUPER expensive, the Equitech 100amp and 200amp wall cabinets are a bit more down to earth pricewise. Still in the multi thousands, though.

My take, is IF your going to run amps from conditioned, filtered power, SIZE matters, bigger transformers, etc. So, say a crown macro tech 2400 needs a 20amp dedicated breaker of it's own, I would oversize my power conditioning and use a 30 amp rated unit.

So, if I were going to run my amps from conditioned power, the equitech 200amp wall cab makes perfect sense.

I went over to the Furman website, they no longer make the 30amp model, however, they now offer in wall units, these are in the form of a quad box receptacle form, with two or 1 outlets, which again, makes sense to me, breaker wired into filtered, conditioned, protected outlets, NO BULKY amp size unit, plugged into wall, gear plugged into unit. Interesting. www.furmansound.com

[jblsound]

imo, power conditioners are just as useless as those cords. But then again I don't have $100k speakers either.

[Ducatista47]

But way outta my league for home listening ...

That is my reaction too, about the entire issue of when this protection is needed and by who. If the power coming through the service entrance to my home poised a threat to my equipment, that would be one thing. If it might compromise my listening experience from time to time but did not endanger my hardware, that would be a scenario of lesser proportions. I fully understand the need in professional applications like Eldorado, and certainly in hospitals and communications centers, but at home?

I cannot offer hard evidence, but I suspect that harmonics, minor noise and voltage fluctuations and the like sometimes have an effect on the audio output; I also suspect the effect is usually or always inaudible. Lacking proof, I put it in the category of highly subjective perceptions by listeners.

Realistically, how much of this would get past a competent power supply? If the ripple went up .01% no one could hear it. Whoever says they can, the $3000/foot interconnect guys would like to have your address.

I am concerned about major surges from the power grid or lightning. I use a whole house Square D surge box, as well as the usual smaller line units, for my computer and audio AC. http://ecatalog.squared.com/fulldeta...mber=SDSB1175C I bought it at Menard's for $200 a few years ago. It also contains one time, replaceable lightning arrestor functionality.


A company with really nice yet affordable products has my attention. Their cans mount outside the service panel in the usual punch out holes. If they totally blow out, there is no mess inside the box. Less than completely catastrophic lightning episodes (that would be less than 60,000 amps) are handled an unlimited number of times. The reaction times are a few nanoseconds. http://www.deltala.com/prod02.htm Go ahead, blow a whopping $50 and actually safeguard your equipment and home from what can actually kill it. I was once asked to troubleshoot a cheap stereo receiver. When my ohmmeter indicated that the transformer was completely fused, I asked what the story was. The trailer it provided music for was struck by lightning!

I used to have a really nice toy, but someone I trusted borrowed it many years ago and it is gone. It was a Sola CV (Constant Voltage) Transformer. Now that was slick! It must have weighed sixty pounds. http://www.sola-hevi-duty.com/produc...ioning/cvs.htm

Clark

[Mr. Widget]

imo, power conditioners are just as useless as those cords. But then again I don't have $100k speakers either.

I think it depends on the "conditioner" as well as the quality of your incoming power... living in a commercial area of San Francisco, my voltage swings could be 20 volts over a 24hr period and god knows what sorts of transients and other noise might be on the lines...


Widget

[timc]

I think it depends on the "conditioner" as well as the quality of your incoming power... living in a commercial area of San Francisco, my voltage swings could be 20 volts over a 24hr period and god knows what sorts of transients and other noise might be on the lines...


Widget

I fully agree with you Widget. When it comes to power conditioners and similar stuff, i use to say to people who asks my oppinion that you can't fix a problem that isn't there.

Personally i have had great results with the active Power Plants from PS-Audio.

Passive series filter i found never worked for me. Too bad the PP's is so darn exspensive.



-Tim