silly question, but have only owned integrated, looking to buy more power for my "new" L5s
if I pickup a used crown/soundcraftsman so regarded here, can the CD signal be connected directly and amplfied or is a pre-amp required for signal processing prior??
thanks
Without a preamp all you'll have control over is the volume, assuming either the CD player or the amp has a volume control. It can be done if that's all you want, (like for testing, etc.), but you'll have far from optimum capabilities, and that's assuming the levels are somewhat compatible. You'll have no tone adjustment, etc., but it should at least function.
John
None of the better preamps I've owned have had tone adjustment either.Originally Posted by johnaec
In the old days you needed a preamp as you could not run a power amp directly from a turntable or even a tape deck if you travel back in time far enough.These days most amps can be driven directly from a CD player. However depending on the input requirements of the amp, you may not have enough voltage to drive the amp to full power. You also need a CD player with a variable output... or an amp with pots on the input. Most amps do not have these controls (many do though) and most CD players do not have variable outputs.
Widget
Many integrateds have the capability to split their pre-amp and amp sections. look for 'Pre-Out' jacks on the back of your integrated and if you have them you can use your integrated as a pre-amp.
But I found using passive preamp (Potentiometer) to vary the level to the amp would sound very bright and thin.
I find using a preamp adds body to the sound.
This is especially noteworthy using tube amps.
To each his/her own though, YMMV!
Regards, Ron
JBL Pro for home use!
Or you could over-complicate the issue: I'm currently listening to L7s through a CD player to a Soundcraftsmen Pro-Control Four pre-amp, looped through "loop 1" to a Soundcraftsmen Pro EQ 44 third-octave equalizer, then to a Soundcraftsmen Pro Power Four (probably around 300 wpc at the L7's 6-ohms). Whew! I think the cables cost more than the electronics. Sounds great though. Between tracks I'm a bit sensitive to the Soundcraftsmen's constant low-speed fan which the D-series and PS-series Crowns don't have and don't need. Sound-wise they're both excellent though you probably have a better chance finding a serviceable old Crown than a Soundcraftsmen. And Crown still supports them; Soundcraftsmen products are very much orphans these days.
I believe some here who've hooked a Crown power amp to the pre-out from some consumer integrated amps have complained about the low output, mostly because of a mismatch in the consumer pre-out level versus what the Crown really wants. Works fine, just most then think they're getting less power than what they had before. They're confusing power with volume though. Adjusting the Crown input attenuators to where your integrated amp's volume control is near 12-o'clock at normal listening level is all you should need to do. My L5s love the Crown PS-400, though with two pairs of L7s, I hardly even listen to the L5s anymore.The Soundcraftsmen amp's whacked! The Pro Control Four volume control starts about 7-o'clock and by 8:30 or so it's too loud for my wife and the amp's LEDs are telling me I'm not even using the whole first watt yet.
Still I think you'd want a bit more control over the inputs and maybe some EQ that a good pre-amp will allow you. The wonderful thing about many Soundcraftsmen pre-amps is they were built for the consumer market and combined an octave EQ with normal pre-amp controls. A good late-model DX4200 is not very expensive. Even a DX4000 is a fine unit usually available for around $100. I only mention such brands because that's what I grew up using. I have very limited experience to guide me otherwise—and even less reason to change! Unlike my car choices where I sold Audi and Porsche for twenty years and wouldn't own either of them, certainly not over a good BMW.
thanks for the answers, my situation is I have a 100WPC integrated Kenwood AVR, and I'm marveling at the L5 balance compared to my L100A, but keep hearing here that "a >200WPC amp of brand name X will make big difference", and I want to experience those heights
However, I don't want to redo my entire system having to buy/pair a preamp+amp, and wanted to see if by investing a few hundred in just an old amp, I could use this for optimal music, and go back to the integrated for HT.
the other thing that has me thoroughly confused is a brand new "reference line" amp from eg Marantz is over $5K but the RMS are still in the 110WPC range, about what I have now? So, assuming the signal cleanliness is orders of magnitude better than my current system, what happens to the wattage level being ultra critical as is stated on these boards ad nauseum?
That should work fine. Half the Crowns I'm talking about aren't rated any more powerful than your Kenwood but if you spend a hundred or two on a Crown PS-200, PS-400, D150A-II, or DC300A-II and don't like what you're hearing, you can always find someone who will pay you what you have in it. Your Kenwood's power rating may well be like comparing apples and oranges with even a Crown PS-200 which is also rated 100wpc at 8 ohms. I have several PS-200s and Crown D150A-IIs loaned out and no one's complaining, or even in a hurry to repair their broken amps. I'm just happy to have them getting some exercise!
No comment. I've seen $10,000 18-watt amps though. My 34-year-old Crown still works great!the other thing that has me thoroughly confused is a brand new "reference line" amp from eg Marantz is over $5K but the RMS are still in the 110WPC range, about what I have now? So, assuming the signal cleanliness is orders of magnitude better than my current system, what happens to the wattage level being ultra critical as is stated on these boards ad nauseum?
This indicates that the value (in Ohms) for the potentiometer was too low. The output impedance of source and the input impedance of the amp often perform a highpass. When dimensioned right the potentiometer is closest to a piece of wire.
____________
Peter
point taken, thanks.....Your Kenwood's power rating may well be like comparing apples
No comment. I've seen $10,000 18-watt amps though. My 34-year-old Crown still works great!
Every AVR I have heard has disappointed me. Also realize that if your Kenwood actually produces 100 watts, a 200 watt anything will only be 3dB more powerful... not really all that much of an improvement in headroom. This is not to say that a really good amp won't improve your system, but finding one that is really good for ~$200 is unlikely in my opinion.
There are those who like old Crowns or the old JBL /Ureis etc... you might find them better than your Kenwood, but then again maybe not.
True enough.
Widget
Here are some completed listings;
http://completed.shop.ebay.com/items...86Q2ec0Q2em283
And if you want an excellent tube preamp, Dynaco made a good one.
http://completed.shop.ebay.com/items...86Q2ec0Q2em283
Here are the specs:
http://home.indy.net/~gregdunn/dynac...400/index.html
http://home.indy.net/~gregdunn/dynac...S3X/index.html
These are extremely well designed units that have a huge following. Simple, reasonably priced and sound fantastic. These came as kits and factory wired. If possible, get a factory wired as they had the quality control in assembly. I have the ST-400 SS and a SCA-35 tube amp as well as a couple of PAS models and have enjoyed them very much.
(OT - apologies. But...)
I got confused.
Why use the "loop"...? It sounds like you've got the EQ in the signal path right where it should be - between the pre-amp and the amp.
bo
"Indeed, not!!"
A good question, normally. The Soundcraftsmen Pro-Control-Four also has a "direct" button that cuts out everything except the volume control. In effect a "straight-wire" connection. If I just stuck the EQ in between the pre-amp and amp even with the EQ defeated the signal path would still run through the EQ and two more patch cords. Also the Pro-EQ-44 apparently won't pass a signal unless it has power to it and is turned on, even if the EQ is defeated. That seems a bit odd. Regardless, the pre-amp has two loop circuits using C-Mos switching so it's a real easy way to hook up the EQ, and easy to bypass it cleanly when I feel like it. Does that make sense? I trust your opinion on this more than mine!
The documentation is a bit light on substance even though I have the owner's manuals for everything.
Yeah, that does make sense. (although I must think that if you're seeking that pure of a signal path there will be higher level gear in your future...
I see the schematics are available for purchase. It'd be interesting to see that, if you don't already have them.
FWIW, when I'm scoping out a console for an upcoming gig - which I do regularly, as we play in all varieties of festivals, venues, and clubs with gear I may not have many hours on - I invariably go straight to the EOM's website and get to the Block Diagrams. Answers every question I have and solves all sorts of confusion over syntax...
Anyway, thanks for the answer.
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