I never had one Marchand, but I heard that they are very good crossover.Originally Posted by Chas
But if you keep the original passive crossover you don't need the CD eq.
Michele
I never had one Marchand, but I heard that they are very good crossover.
But if you keep the original passive crossover you don't need the CD eq.
Michele
Thats wierd, I was always led to believe Clio was an accurate measuring tool and Im sure it is by all acounts. I would have thought Clio would have had the necessary resoloution to picked the wopping 5dB reduction at 800Hz up relativley easily, I suppose like all spectrum analaysis tools it depends on how it is set up, it stands out like dogs balls on the voltage drives .... go figureI can't hear any problem, nor can my Clio measurement system....
Michele:dont-know
4435, 4430, 4315, 4312B.
2 x Bryston 4BSST2, BGW 203, JBL 5235, Aphex 720.
believe me, I know how to use Clio.Thats wierd, I was always led to believe Clio was an accurate measuring tool and Im sure it is by all acounts. I would have thought Clio would have had the necessary resoloution to picked the wopping 5dB reduction at 800Hz up relativley easily, I suppose like all spectrum analaysis tools it depends on how it is set up, it stands out like dogs balls on the voltage drives .... go figure
I think you are overestimating this LF shielving...
And you are underestimating other people capability.
Choosing the right cut over frequency combined with the right Q and slope, con solve your "LF shielving nightmare".
Obviously you must know how to use a good measurement system (like Clio). And more obviously you must own it...
Now I must go....I must inform all other people that I know and that aren't using the 5235 with 4430 card that they are so incompetents....
Michele
Sorry for butting in here and I don't mean to be critical but I thought I would check out the Marchland xovers. Looking at the schematics I am amazed that this would sound better than the 5235. It is basically the same filter op amp topology and they are only using LF353 op amps which is the same family of JFET op amps as the TLO72, except one is Texas Instruments and the other National Semiconductor. Infact if you look at the front end of the XM9 the differential input is only a single op amp, the problem with this is that you have a differing input impeadence on each + and - inputs or differing loads presented to the source, this is poor design principle and should raise alarm bells for the rest of the design, it will have an adverse effect on the CMMR if run using a balanced source, at least UREI/JBL used 2 op amps so the input impeadence on each leg is equal and using a purpose higher current low source impeadnece line drive op amp on the output to drive complicated loads that can be encountered in real life. The build quality of the XM9's is comparable with what a hobbiest would produce on his kitchen table or to the stuff I used to build when I was 14. I know this "hand made" thingy is suposed to imply some sort of superiority to some but not me. The difference here is that the 5235 is a very early 80's (or earlier) design and the Marchland is a 2000 design but the same topology and using basically the same chipsand is more to do with "names" rather than engineering principles.
NOW don't get me wrong here, I am not saying the 5235 with 4430/4435 cards is the best analog cross over ever produced by mankind, what I am saying is that because of the specific filter slopes and phase response it is the most apropriate for the 4430/4435 and yes Nelson Pass AND Brystons AND BGW's crossovers with discrete op amps are a better performer, no question ! Now if either of these crossovers could produce the same filter slopes and phase response as the 4430/4435 cards then I would buy one no question .... so it depends on what you value more ... correct filter network with LF shelving and phase response making the system more balanced or a slightly "cleaner" sound .... I go for the appropriate slopes with shelving and phase response and others go for the discrete op amp thing .... no problems now lets move on ....... sorry if my views have offended anybody
4435, 4430, 4315, 4312B.
2 x Bryston 4BSST2, BGW 203, JBL 5235, Aphex 720.
I can understand your sentiments based on the info they provide on the web. However, there are "audiophile" high performance upgrades that Phil can provide. You only have to ask....In fact, I would go as far as to say that Marchand has provided me something that fits neatly (sound-wise)with my Mark Levinson No. 326S preamp, with my own bal I/O and power.
LF and TLO series chips are so far from reality, these days....
Charles.
Op amp envy??
Rob
"I could be arguing in my spare time"
This thread has produced some really useful information for bi-amping 4430's and 4435's
NOW don't get me wrong here, I am not saying the 5235 with 4430/4435 cards is the best analog cross over ever produced by mankind, what I am saying is that because of the specific filter slopes and phase response it is the most apropriate for the 4430/4435 and yes Nelson Pass AND Brystons AND BGW's crossovers with discrete op amps are a better performer, no question ! Now if either of these crossovers could produce the same filter slopes and phase response as the 4430/4435 cards then I would buy one no question .... so it depends on what you value more ... correct filter network with LF shelving and phase response making the system more balanced or a slightly "cleaner" sound .... I go for the appropriate slopes with shelving and phase response and others go for the discrete op amp thing .... no problems now lets move on ....... sorry if my views have offended anybody
No one offended here….
I’m in NY now, but next week I’ll be back home.
I still have my 5235, no…. to be honest, I have two of them. Yes, because it has been my first experience with electronic crossover and was so excited that I found a second one for cheap and bought it as a spare…..this was quite long time ago. Then I found out that the passive crossover sounded better than active with 5235 (stock one, not modded…) and start changing electronic xo until I ended with the XVR1.
I can try to run some test and compare the 4430 driven with it (the 5235) and with the XVR1.
Just for fun.
If this can help….
Michele
The nice thing about the 4430/4435 is that the top end can be line level charge coupled passive and the bottom end can be the usual op-amp solution. It's best to build a charge coupled bi-amp only filter for it too and dump that switch. I detailed all this years ago.
Right. Following what you wrote at that time, this is what I'm working on now. (little bit late, but now I've more spare time that then)
I making a new crossover, only for bi-amp, gettin rid of the bi-amp switch and Lpad's (I'm using fixed resistor).
Michele
I think a lot of users are not aware of all the goings on in the 4430 - 4435 crossovers and with going active all those wires, switches and amps and cables it can get into a mess. Agreed a make over of the crossovers are mandatory.
What's needed is a block diagram of what happens and what goes where.
That said the 4430 was never one of my favourites and I dont think it warrants all the fussing over..they belong in discos..that 2235H cone is just too freaking heavy with that mass ring at 1 khertz. In Japan the only pair of 4430 to be seen was in the rain out the front of Dynamic Audio.
The 4435 is a totally different story.
Tony .... I agree lets keep this thread going !!
4313B ..... I was initially sceptical about cc ing the 4435 network, from what I read most people agree it is worth doing so this is the next project for me, rather than re invent the wheel does anybody have any pcb's made up for the 4435 cc? ... are Solen caps the cap of choice for cc ing ?I have already replaced C7 and C9 with Clarity Caps just as an exercise and hard wired the change over switch out.
mvaldes .... This is also what I intend to do, dedicated bi amp cc network only and substituting the L Pads with fixed resistors. I would be interested in your results with the passive cc HF line level network since this is a standard slope. I would be interested in looking at the schematics for either the Bryston or Pass xovers do you have a copy of either?
Chas ..... I will give you the benefit about Marchland .... but the stuff he has on the website really is not a good example.
Cheers all
4435, 4430, 4315, 4312B.
2 x Bryston 4BSST2, BGW 203, JBL 5235, Aphex 720.
I was only yankin your chain.
I would not mess with a Pcb, the size of these capacitors does not lend to such.
Try bypassing the Clarity cap with a 0.01 Auricap or better still use Hovlands
Also have a look at Greg Ball's new discrete active crossover kits, full class A and Greg can execute those voltage drives.
http://www.ska-audio.com/Forum/YaBB....mpage=products
Built and tested only AUD$91.00 per channel!!
An interesting idea would be a First Watt F1 or F2 (Diy) for the High Pass amp as the horn/driver can benefit from a negative impediance to smooth roughness in the 1-3 khertz range according to the designer.
And just build the 6 dB high pass into the amp.
Make sure you cc that 20 uF capacitor in the 4430/4435 network though, it is the second pole of the high pass filter.
A very elegant solution, for sure.
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