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Thread: sam1hf / sam2lf

  1. #16
    Junior Member AudioFan's Avatar
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    Crossovers and response

    I see that you are still working on your DIY project. Have you been able to find the appropriate crossover application for these systems? Are you still using the Rane crossover for your speakers? I made an inquiry relative to your project 7 months ago, but no one on the site seemed interested in my question. I really don't know where else to go to find the specific information needed to finish my little speaker project. I hope you have better luck than I have getting information about these horns.

  2. #17
    Senior Member Ed Zeppeli's Avatar
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    Hello AudioFan,

    I'm using a dbx Venu360 and REW to experiment and get things tuned in. I can see what the SAM1HF built in Xover is doing by running a full range sweep in REW but I don't know what the combined crossover looked like without the Synthesis SDEC or passive SAM12X crossover were doing.

    I think the lack of response on your Array 800 question may have to do with the fact that not many people have them? The SAM1HF is the same driver/horn combination used in the 1400 Array and so has a little more cache. Also, since some came available as parts they were the subect of a few DIY threads.

    Here's a thread on my tuning experience.

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...-Fi&highlight=
    DIY Array, 2242 sub, 4408, 4208, Control 8SR, E120 Guitar cab, Control 1, LSR305.

  3. #18
    Junior Member AudioFan's Avatar
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    Array 800 DIY crossover project

    Ed,

    I reviewed the link you referred me to. Very impressive testing results and process! I don't have that equipment unfortunately. You seem to have a great deal of experience and knowledge about audio measurements and this equipment to accomplish it. Unfortunately, I don't really have a crossover to test. The HF units I picked up did not have any crossover with them. I am still trying to find any information about the crossover for these speakers. I know they are not as exciting as the Array 1400, but they should be very similar - just a bit smaller. The HF units I have from the Array 800 have a small plug with four wires coming out of the HF unit. They are not marked as to which driver they are attached to. Apparently they plugged into another matching receptacle in the bass unit. I am sure the crossover is mounted in the bass unit, but I did not get that part in the deal. So, I am left trying to figure out what the JBL engineers originally decided was the best combination of components in that crossover to achieve the best sound. I thought with all the combined knowledge of JBL engineers, audio experts, and so many others with so much experience here on this site - someone would know what the crossover was in the Array 800, or how I could build one. I do have several DBX crossovers and EQ's. I have many JBL crossovers and a lot of UREI and Ashly Pro equipment as well as a few pieces from Rane, EV, DuKane, Pioneer, Luxman, Accuphase, and Nikko. I even have an old JBL ES52000, but no "modern" evaluation equipment. Most of my equipment and speakers are just like me - old and not quite up to current standards.

    Thanks for your reply.

  4. #19
    Senior Member Ed Zeppeli's Avatar
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    Hi,

    Nope. I'm still trying to figure it all out as well...just documenting my experience. But thank-you.

    It's funny. I have all the gear required to match the 1400 Array Voltage Drive curves digitally but I find myself actually fighting the internal crossover on my horns. In a way I'd rather be in your boat faced with two pairs of wires dangling out of the back. lol

    Looks like you're going to have to figure out which are which and set up an active three way system but I don't think you'll be able to do that with analogue gear. Those compression drivers usually require a funky curve to them to get the response flattened; more tuning required than what just an analogue active crossover can provide, I believe.

    Crossover frequencies are listed here as well as driver identities. Have you searched this site for info on the 175ND?

    http://www.jblsynthesis.com/tl_files...ray%201000.pdf
    DIY Array, 2242 sub, 4408, 4208, Control 8SR, E120 Guitar cab, Control 1, LSR305.

  5. #20
    Senior Member Ed Zeppeli's Avatar
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    Sorry, just realized it was the Array 800 in your possession.

    175ND-3

    http://www.jblsynthesis.com/tl_files...al%20Specs.pdf

    Looks like the HF/UHF schematic is in the above PDF.

    If you have the resources to find someone to build you a pair you could then match to a woofer of your choosing using your analog crossovers into the freshly built passive crossover feeding the horn.
    Last edited by Ed Zeppeli; 09-22-2017 at 08:34 PM. Reason: to add
    DIY Array, 2242 sub, 4408, 4208, Control 8SR, E120 Guitar cab, Control 1, LSR305.

  6. #21
    Senior Member Ed Zeppeli's Avatar
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    It might be worth calling JBL Parts and asking if they actually have CROSSOVERNETWORK HF/UHF360911-001.


    Could be cheaper than custom.
    DIY Array, 2242 sub, 4408, 4208, Control 8SR, E120 Guitar cab, Control 1, LSR305.

  7. #22
    Junior Member AudioFan's Avatar
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    Array 800 crossover

    Ed,

    Thanks for the link. I don't know why I never found that in my searches. I looked at everything I could find on this site, and I thought that I had found most of any other related info on the interweb. Of course that was a while ago. Anyway, I can certainly use that information. I will call Harmon Service, even though I have never had a good result from that effort in the past. Greg T. was still designing speakers and working for JBL the last time I got any real help from JBL.

    I do have a couple of Behringer products that might help:
    Behringer Super-X Pro
    Behringer Super-X Pro
    BG Neo 8
    BK 2120 Oscilloscope
    Brnngr Feedback Destroyer
    Brnngr MX2200
    BrnngrCX2310
    BrnngrCX2310
    BrnngrCX3400

  8. #23
    Senior Member Ed Zeppeli's Avatar
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    I'm not familiar with all that Behringer kit. Below is the voltage drive of the 1400 Array to give you an idea of what a crossover needs to do in these systems. If you think you can replicate those kinds of curves with any of your gear go for it. You'll need crossover and parametric EQs. UREI and Ashly stuff has a pretty good reputation; which you also mentioned?

    If you have no luck with getting the OEM passive or a custom one made you could always jump in with both feet and pick up some other 'stuff'.

    I think a Dayton USB mic can be had for around $100 and REW is free. I hear good things about MiniDSP for crossover and eq functions. Fairly affordable and popular enough that there is a lot of online resources for information about them.

    Good luck!

    Name:  1400 Array pg 07.jpg
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    DIY Array, 2242 sub, 4408, 4208, Control 8SR, E120 Guitar cab, Control 1, LSR305.

  9. #24
    Junior Member AudioFan's Avatar
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    Ed,

    The graph is very helpful. It seems to indicate that the midrange driver is much more efficient than the LF or UHF drivers in the 1400 Array system. I may be able to configure some of my current equipment to provide the output you outlined in your graph. At least it will provide me with an idea of what is required to start researching and testing in an effort to find a usable drive contour. I just wanted to get them up and running for my den or another smaller type area. I have an extra JBL HTPS-400 sub I can add to them to enhance the low bass if needed.

    I am somewhat hesitant about having to insert a lot of additional pieces and connectors between the source and the speakers as a permanent installation. Between electronic crossovers, multiple amplifiers, DSP's, equalizers, connectors, and a power source/conditioner, they might weigh more than the speakers they are driving. I would like to keep it simple as possible to reduce distortion and noise. Since these are small speakers that will not be required to be driven at very high levels in a small room, I may be able to come up with some kind of passive crossover that is compatible with reproducing quality sound from them. Hopefully the information you provided will allow me to find the correct input to drive these systems to an accurate output.

    Here are short descriptions of the listed equipment/function I listed that you said you were unfamiliar with:

    BEHRINGER SUPER-X PRO CX3400:


    Professional stereo 2-way/3-way/mono 4-way crossover featuring state-of-the-art Linkwitz-Riley filters with 24 dB/octave Individual Limiters on each output for optimal loudspeaker protection
    Adjustable time delay for phase alignment between drivers
    CD horn equalization for constant directivity horn compensation
    Absolutely flat summed amplitude response, zero phase difference

    BEHRINGER FEEDBACK DESTROYER PRO FBQ2496:

    Ultra-high performance 2-channel 24-bit/96 kHz Feedback Destroyer and Parametric EQ
    Automatically and "intelligently" locates and destroys up to 40 feedback frequencies
    Ultra-narrow FBQ filters for extremely effective feedback suppression, while keeping highest sonic quality
    Panic button immediately takes action in feedback emergency situations
    "Set-and-forget" default setting enables immediate and super-easy Feedback Destroyer performance

    BEHRINGER SUPER-X PRO CX2310:

    Professional stereo 2-way/mono 3-way crossover featuring state-of-the-art Linkwitz-Riley filters with 24 dB/octave
    Additional subwoofer output with independent Frequency control
    Absolutely flat summed amplitude response, zero phase difference
    Individual output Gain controls for all bands
    Individual output Mute switches for easy band adjustment

    JBL Professional ES52000 Digital Controller:

    (http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Vin...BL-ES52000.pdf)

    The ES52000 utilizes audiophile grade analog circuitry, 64 times oversampled 18 bit A to D
    (analog to digital) converters, and 8 times oversampled 18 bit D to A (digital to analog) conver-
    ters, with full 20 kHz bandwidth, 44.1 kHz sampling rate, and 24 bit signal processing in the
    digital domain for maximum dynamic range and minimum signal distortion at low levels.

    Both inputs are electronically balanced. The four outputs are unbalanced low impedance; optional
    transformers may be added by a qualified technician if symmetrical, floating output isolation is
    desired.

    Thirty-two points of FIR digital equalization are provided in both low frequency and high
    frequency bands, in single- and dual-channel modes, to smooth the loudspeaker frequency
    response down to approximately 150 Hz.

    -Audiophile grade circuitry
    -Peak program limiting in each band
    -Front panel controls are provided for the adjustment of input gain and muting of each output channel
    -Freq response: 10hz-19khz

    I also have:

    dbx Drive Rack PA:

    Setup Wizard Steps Through Speaker and Amp Selection and Levels
    Auto EQ„¢ Wizard with 28-Band RTA Tunes Your System For The Venue
    AFS® Wizard Helps Eliminate Feedback
    Stereo Feedback Elimination with 12 feedback notch filters
    dbx 120A Sub-harmonic Synthesizer
    Classic dbx Input Compression
    JBL® Speaker and Crown® Power Amp Tunings included
    USB Firmware and Speaker Tunings Field Updatable With Harman HiQnet„¢ System
    Architect
    Full time RTA function
    Front-Panel Output Mutes
    Pink Noise Generator (used with Auto EQ and Auto Level Wizards)
    Linked Stereo DSP Processing for ease of use
    24-Bit ADC/24-Bit DAC, >113 dB Dynamic Range
    2-Channel XLR Input and 6-Channel XLR Output
    2x3, 2x4, 2x5, 2x6 Crossover Configurations
    Dual 28-band Graphic EQ-Linked or Dual Mono
    Stereo Multi-band Parametric EQ
    Stereo Output Limiters
    Output Alignment Delay
    Power on/off Mute Circuitry
    Front-panel RTA-M XLR input with phantom power
    25 User Programs/25 Factory Programs
    Full Graphic LCD Display
    Front Panel Input and Output Meters

    B+K Precision 2120 - 30 MHz Dual-Trace Oscilloscope:

    4" x 5" CRT. equipped with variable scale illumination.
    Model 2120 features built-in 50MHz FREQUENCY COUNTER
    Built-in COMPONENT TESTER
    Dual trace all models for displaying two waveforms simultaneously
    Sweep features: Calibrated time measurements. 23 ranges.

    HP 3466A Bench Digital Multimeter
    Anadex Frequency Synthesizer
    AudioControl SA3050 RTA
    Hitachi V-665 Dual Trace 60MHz Oscilloscope

    Thanks again for your reply and information,

    pk

  10. #25
    Senior Member Ed Zeppeli's Avatar
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    Yes, the main compression driver is the most sensitive and therefore needs less signal to get equal output. If you have an efficient woofer you won't have to pad it down as much. The 1400 Array uses a relatively inefficient woofer.

    Well there you go. You can use the driverack!
    DIY Array, 2242 sub, 4408, 4208, Control 8SR, E120 Guitar cab, Control 1, LSR305.

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