Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 42

Thread: SACD questions

  1. #1
    Senior Member Akira's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    327

    SACD questions

    I am totally uneducated in the arena of SACD and have a few questions.
    1) I have heard that some CD players can read the super audio format?
    2) How much does a disc cost and what is the availability for classic rock?
    Carly Simon, Pink Floyd, Joni Mitchell, Stealy Dan, 1972-77 etc.
    3) Is the quality that much better, different. Hey this is audio after all
    and we are all familiar with the $5,000. RCA audiophile cables.
    Thanks

  2. #2
    Senior Member Hoerninger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,892
    3)
    The theoretical achievable quality I can not judge. But SACDs are very often more carefully produced. So even old recordings may sound nice.
    SACD may be produced in multichannel, some are very delightful.

    2) Prises are comparable to those of CDs, at least for my point of view.
    Search at Amazon, for example "Pink Floyd SACD".

    1) Others may know.
    I am using a Pioner DVD player which "eats" all sorts of disks.
    __________________________________________________ _
    And than there are Audio DVDs with higher technical performance and multichannel.
    __________________________________________________ _
    And then there are audio disks with DTS.
    I own "Sting ... nothing like the sun" in 5.1 multichannel. (My player eats. )
    Who has more details about DTS?
    ___________
    Peter

    PS: A cheers for the Denon!

  3. #3
    Moderator hjames's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    NoVA - DC 'burbs
    Posts
    8,547
    I have a Harman Kardon CD changer - it plays conventional CDs plus the HDCD format discs.

    HDCDs can play on regular CD players in normal mode, and can play in HDCD
    players with a fuller sound. Not all HDCD discs are marked, so you may have an HDCD and not even know it unless you put it in an HDCD decoder enabled player. (K.d.lang's Invincible Summer is one I have)

    SACDs will not play in conventional CD players - they require special SACD units and cannot play in anything else even in lesser mode (apparently Sony and Pioneer and the big brands for that). I had Roxy Music "Avalon' in SACD and just gave it away because it would not play in anything I owned.

    DVD-A
    These are DVDs that play in (usually) Audio only mode in DVD players only - they have one or more multi-channel audio tracks encoded for surround sound (Either Dolby or DTS mode, or maybe both depending on the disc).

    After reading TiDome's description of DVD-A Nothing like the Sun, I recently
    bought "Brand New Day" (DTS version) - its a very rich full surround environment and is a lot of fun - We also own the Beatles "Love" and its also a lot of fun in DTS.

    My experience is that DTS sounds better for most movies and the small bit of music I have than the corresponding Dolby. Of course, your receiver needs to have a chip to do DTS sound for this to be true - not all do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoerninger View Post
    3)
    The theoretical achievable quality I can not judge. But SACDs are very often more carefully produced. So even old recordings may sound nice.
    SACD may be produced in multichannel, some are very delightful.

    2) Prices are comparable to those of CDs, at least for my point of view.
    Search at Amazon, for example "Pink Floyd SACD".

    1) Others may know.
    I am using a Pioneer DVD player which "eats" all sorts of disks.
    __________________________________________________ _
    And than there are Audio DVDs with higher technical performance and multichannel.
    __________________________________________________ _
    And then there are audio disks with DTS.
    I own "Sting ... nothing like the sun" in 5.1 multichannel. (My player eats. )
    Who has more details about DTS?
    ___________
    Peter
    2ch: WiiM Pro; Topping E30 II DAC; Oppo, Acurus RL-11, Acurus A200, JBL Dynamics Project - Offline: L212-TwinStack, VonSchweikert VR-4
    7: TIVO, Oppo BDP103D, B&K, 2pr UREI 809A, TF600, JBL B460

  4. #4
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    3,734
    SACD technology is inherently better than the earlier ("redbook") technologies because the sampling rate is much higher (2.8M vs. 44.1K). The 44.1K technology is a highly compromised technology that was settled upon for reasons external to the concern for audio quality. This was foreseen by the engineers at the BBC who felt that if the early digital storage technology was done right a five inch disc could hold 8 minutes of music. The industry wanted 70 minutes, to be more than an LP, and they wanted a five inch disc that could fit into a car stereo like a cassette. That's where the sampling rate came from.

    SACD, like a DVD, is a later technology that is capable of storing much more information on a given size disc (remember the 1 foot digital movie laser discs?)

    Execution bringing it to market has had its problems.

    It takes a high quality player to bring the benefits of SACD to your amplifiers, speakers and ears. Consumers are often reluctant to pay for quality. Most CD players engineered and marketed to the price points people will pay, because of poor quality construction and electronics--especially the analog output sections which usually use cheap IC's--don't even capture the quality potential of regular CD's.

    Cheap CD players that supposedly play SACD's often down sample to redbook BEFORE the DACS!!! Thus they do not really play SACD. If someone plays a SACD on one of these players and doesn't hear a difference, naturally they don't get what SACD is about.

    There also can be similar problems in the recording chain that in effect compromise the true quality of SACD.

    However, SACD's with a clean recording chain (this can include a conversion from an analog master tape, which is why so many SACD's are reissues of great recordings), played on a real SACD player with quality analog electronics for the output are a revelation. I would characterize them as almost like vinyl without its inherent problems of noise, compression and inner groove distortion.

    The majority of SACD's produced today are in fact hybrid discs that have completely separate programs encoded, one for SACD and one for regular, and the pricing is very little higher if at all. However, there are premium quality SACD's, just as there are premium quality regular CD's and vinyl records, that are priced higher.

    SACD's are not necessarily multichannel, and most are not. A multichannel SACD can also have a two channel SACD and/or a redbook layer and most do, so they can be played in SACD two channel or redbook CD. Just read the labels when buying.

    So if you go into SACD, do some research, plan on spending up a little for a genuine player with good quality analog electronics for the output (that will probably also reveal more of the quality of your regular CD's).

    This has all been discussed on the forums before, and of course there is a great deal of information on the internet.

    David

  5. #5
    RIP 2021 SEAWOLF97's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    in "managed decline"
    Posts
    10,054
    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post
    This was foreseen by the engineers at the BBC who felt that if the early digital storage technology was done right a five inch disc could hold 8 minutes of music. The industry wanted 70 minutes, to be more than an LP, and they wanted a five inch disc that could fit into a car stereo like a cassette. David
    I have read...(Stereo Review, I think)....that the target of 74 minutes of CD music storage was calculated by the fact that Beethoven's 9th Ode to Joy took up exactly 4 LP sides (18 minutes each) and they wanted to get the whole piece on a disc without spilling onto a second.

    Most MiniDisc's are 74 minute storage also.
    Some kind of happiness is measured out in miles

  6. #6
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    3,734
    Quote Originally Posted by SEAWOLF97 View Post
    I have read...(Stereo Review, I think)....that the target of 74 minutes of CD music storage was calculated by the fact that Beethoven's 9th Ode to Joy took up exactly 4 LP sides (18 minutes each) and they wanted to get the whole piece on a disc without spilling onto a second.

    Most MiniDisc's are 74 minute storage also.
    Well, if that's true, their hearts were certainly in the right place!

  7. #7
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    3,734
    Quote Originally Posted by Don C View Post
    . . . . Recent testing has shown that there is no audible difference when high res stereo audio is converted to 16 bit 44,100 hz. . . . . .
    C'mon, Don! This statement warrants chapter and verse.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Orange County, CA
    Posts
    3,597
    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post
    Well, if that's true, their hearts were certainly in the right place!

    It is true and that's the way it was and why it was.

    Unforetunately SACD and DVD-Audio are almost dying formats and software is hard and getting harder to come by.

    To get the most bang for the buck, buy a combintation DVD/SACD/DVD-Audio/CD player that will also pass DTS. Do not buy one that will not play all audio formats! There is not enough software in any one format to warrant purchase of the unit. And if you do get one or the other, the disk you absolutely can't live without will be in the other format (Murphy's law).

    Recognize that no SACD or DVD-Audio disk will ever sound like the original release on LP/CD because they go into the studio and re-mix the music for the new format. Even on disks that have both formats (DVD-A and CD or SACD and CD), both mixes are not the same. This really keeps you from doing a true A/B comparison.

    Some disks are encoded for systems that have ALL large speakers and will never sound quite right if you have small rears and allocate the bass to the sub. The engineers knew what they were doing but refused to compromise audio quality for people with lesser systems. Sort of makes sense if you consider that the format is to get the most out the music. This is one reason why I run all "large" speakers, even in the rear and front surrounds.

    DVD-A does include visuals, but in the interest of disk space, they are usually stills.

    BTW, there is also DTS multi-channel format and these also sound different (my least favorite of the multi-channel formats). (Santana's Abraxas really sucks in DTS. )

    I use a Yamaha S2300 unit (DVD/CD/SACD/DVD-A/DTS) and when S&V rated the unit, the SACD portion got among the highest marks of any unit tested. The DVD-A was just average, though to my ear in a real life situation, you would be hard pressed to hear a difference, even if you could get identical software for both formats. In the Yamaha, the SACD and DVD-A are completely divorced and don't share circuitry (except the final stages of amplification). This was due to copyrights/lawyers/$$$/etc.

    Of course there are other "problems" with the formats. For example, DVD-A puts extra blank time between tracks on a disk as the player does it's thing searching the FAT. Some units are worse than others (my original Pioneer was terrible for this and also had the DVD "chroma bug"). The Eagles DVD-A "Hotel California" had me return my unit (after the shop tried for 4 months to fix this design flaw) because I could not tolerate the extra space between "Wasted Time" and the "Wasted Time Reprieve." Even my Yamaha puts in this time to access the FAT, but not as bad as my Pioneer..., and no Chroma Bug!

  9. #9
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    3,734
    When it is time to get a new player (you decide), the SACD format justifies the purchase of a real SACD player with a real hi fi analog output stage even if you play only 2-channel. Remember, a decent player, and a lot of people have never heard one, will make your regular CD's sound better too.

    As regards multichannel, there are some really intriguing SACD's out--I'm thinking of choral works in particular (Grex Vocalis's Magnum Mysterium, Rundfunkchor Berlin's XL: Choral Works for 40 voices, Oxford Camerata's Tallis: Spem in alium, Anonymous 4's American Angels: Songs of Hope, Redemption, & Glory-- these have already accumulated here) and although I can't play them as multichannel that in no way diminishes the great benefits of SACD stereo.

    As for DVDA, I see no harm in it, and whether you get a player that also plays it depends on which part of the catalog you are interested in. It's an entirely separate consideration.

    David

  10. #10
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    3,734
    Quote Originally Posted by Don C View Post
    I don't want to start a war here. If you like, you could visit just about any other audio site and join a war already in progress.
    No chapter and verse? It does matter who, what, where, when and how.

  11. #11
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    3,734
    Quote Originally Posted by toddalin View Post
    . . . . SACD and DVD-Audio are almost dying formats and software is hard and getting harder to come by. . . .
    And the trend will probably continue. If we were to make the decision based on the carbon footprint of making aluminum discs with plastic coatings we'd all be listening to downloaded MP3's tomorrow (and no more tube or Class A amps!)

    David

  12. #12
    Moderator hjames's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    NoVA - DC 'burbs
    Posts
    8,547
    OK - the OPPO disc player I recently got does SACD , DVD-A, DivX, and other formats.
    I had gotten an SACD copy of Roxy Music: Avalon ages ago but never heard the extra track (Always Unknown) before. It plays fine on the Oppo with all other tracks in fine Surround Sound, so I know the SACD feature of the OPPO works well, and I was quite impressed.
    Since then I've gotten
    [SACD] - Bryan Ferry: Boys and Girls
    [DVDA] Sting: Brand new Day
    [DVDA] Nothing Like the Sun
    [SACD] The Who: Tommy (deluxe 2 disc ver)

    Most of those were impressive so I just got
    [SACD] Moody Blues: To Our Chldren's Children's Children (deluxe 2 discs ver)

    Gotta say, I hate the Moodies disc. Its a bad mix or something - the mellotron is WAY down in the mix, I had to pull out an old LP to check the differences but it just isn't right. But no one online seems to comment on that.

    Are there many horridly bad surround mixes on SACD?
    2ch: WiiM Pro; Topping E30 II DAC; Oppo, Acurus RL-11, Acurus A200, JBL Dynamics Project - Offline: L212-TwinStack, VonSchweikert VR-4
    7: TIVO, Oppo BDP103D, B&K, 2pr UREI 809A, TF600, JBL B460

  13. #13
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Rocinante
    Posts
    8,170
    Are there many horridly bad surround mixes on SACD?
    Of course there are. It's just a playback format so there are good and bad mixes just like any other.

    Rob

  14. #14
    Gary L
    Guest
    Quote by Hjames:

    SACDs will not play in conventional CD players - they require special SACD units and cannot play in anything else even in lesser mode (apparently Sony and Pioneer and the big brands for that). I had Roxy Music "Avalon' in SACD and just gave it away because it would not play in anything I owned.

    I own just one SACD, Patricia Barber, Cafe blue and it sounds fantastic on my SACD player. I have played it on all of my other players and it plays fine but without the depth the SACD tracks add when played in the main system.

    I suppose it is possible that some SACD recordings are specifically designed to play only on SACD players but this particular one says right on it, " Mobile fidelity Super Audio CD, Hybrid Stereo, Plays on all SACD and CD Players".

    It is very hard to describe what difference there is but the best I can say is when I play it on the SACD system as opposed to the regular CD player, I can hear a great deal more detail and the music appears to come from everywhere instead of just right and left sides. I use just two speakers in my main system but the SACD seems to add a few more speakers that are not there.

    Gary

  15. #15
    Moderator hjames's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    NoVA - DC 'burbs
    Posts
    8,547
    Apparently there are various SACD technologies!
    I have some SACD surround discs, I have Hybrid SACD (like my Roxy Music disc). On an SACD machine it played 10 tracks, 9 in SACD Surround mode.
    The OPPO machine I just got decodes the SACD tracks fine ...


    Quote Originally Posted by Gary L View Post
    Quote by Hjames:

    SACDs will not play in conventional CD players - they require special SACD units and cannot play in anything else even in lesser mode (apparently Sony and Pioneer and the big brands for that). I had Roxy Music "Avalon' in SACD and just gave it away because it would not play in anything I owned.

    I own just one SACD, Patricia Barber, Cafe blue and it sounds fantastic on my SACD player. I have played it on all of my other players and it plays fine but without the depth the SACD tracks add when played in the main system.

    I suppose it is possible that some SACD recordings are specifically designed to play only on SACD players but this particular one says right on it, " Mobile fidelity Super Audio CD, Hybrid Stereo, Plays on all SACD and CD Players".

    It is very hard to describe what difference there is but the best I can say is when I play it on the SACD system as opposed to the regular CD player, I can hear a great deal more detail and the music appears to come from everywhere instead of just right and left sides. I use just two speakers in my main system but the SACD seems to add a few more speakers that are not there.

    Gary
    2ch: WiiM Pro; Topping E30 II DAC; Oppo, Acurus RL-11, Acurus A200, JBL Dynamics Project - Offline: L212-TwinStack, VonSchweikert VR-4
    7: TIVO, Oppo BDP103D, B&K, 2pr UREI 809A, TF600, JBL B460

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. What's Playing Now
    By MikeM in forum Music
    Replies: 10807
    Last Post: 03-18-2024, 03:49 AM
  2. 250 questions
    By SEAWOLF97 in forum Lansing Product General Information
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 11-19-2008, 07:29 PM
  3. Newbie A7 questions
    By Horniac in forum Lansing Product Technical Help
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 10-03-2006, 02:18 PM
  4. SACD - Discussion Thread
    By Mr. Widget in forum Miscellaneous Gear
    Replies: 50
    Last Post: 05-02-2006, 09:06 PM
  5. Kudos and Project Questions.
    By Uncle Paul in forum Lansing Product DIY Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-23-2005, 12:16 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •