Loudspeakercable - help is wanted

[scott fitlin]

I appreciate the guesture... its all quite amusing.

Its even more fun spending some else's cash to get it right

There are some honest people in the industry.

Its a case of talking the the right people and they believe me they are not the skeptics.


Ian

I never said I DON'T believe you.

I do believe wire and type, ans size makes a difference. I have heard things that audio profesionals tell me I cant hear.

As far as my earlier post, it was just some humor. I mean, hey, a cute laugh here and there, ?

[Allanvh5150]

If we get a caable made of aluminium, copper, gold, lead, silver........of say 0.1ohm resistance and apply a voltage to one end with a load at the other we will get current flow. Current flow as we know is when an electron moves from one molecule to another in the cable. All electrons are created equal. If the cable has the same type of sheath and the same overall resistance it cant alter the sound in any way. Good cables are usualy of very low resistance with a very low capacitance sheath. A poor cable may have a high capacitance sheath which would tend to roll off the high frequencies. Maybe this is the "detail" that we hear so much about. I would still tend towards a silicon rubber power flex which costs only a few dollars per metre.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I never said I DON'T believe you.

I do believe wire and type, and size makes a difference. I have heard things that audio profesionals tell me I cant hear.

As far as my earlier post, it was just some humor. I mean, hey, a cute laugh here and there, ?

It was a play on my previous employment in this area....not to be taken personally This stuff is my pet past time as is many .

I thought psot 59 was cool.

The first post asked for help and advise so I am helping with good advice.

We do get a number of new members asking the same thing and I see them getting Bumped like it was dumb question.

The only thing dumb are the responses.

A little scientific investigation and practical experience goes a long way.

Before you embark on fancy cables review the weakness of the speaker system overall.

The overall Dcr losses in the older vintage stock networks are quite significant and contribute to a loss in resolution and damping. Its in the order of an ohm in some of them.

So it helps to minimise these losses by starting with the rear terminals, then bypass the biamp switch or if you are more adventurous install an outboard crossover with high quality connectors.

Run the same type of cable from the amp to the actual drivers if possible.

If you apply a systematic approach your efforts will be rewarded.

But a one off flash in the pan with expensive cables may only make a change but not always an improvement.

I would recommend a make over of the network and the rest of it before spending serious money on cables for a 4341.

If you look at the project K2 stuff they have put a lot of effort in this area and it think the older systems can benefit.

As I said in the Japan thread Hifi is alive and well in Japan and people spend real money on cables and terminations. I saw numerous show cases of this stuff from $25 - over $1000 & some cable and terminals that are worth more than some peoples speakers I am sure! I think that is a little extreme and I would recommend a linear expenditure across the board.

If you own a $5000- $10,000 amp I think a reasonable outlay is justifiable with the above caveats. Of course if you owned that type of amp you might argue a more current model JBL is appropriate but people like these older systems for one reason or another.

Pm me for futher details

Ian

Loudspeakercable - help is wanted

Hi everyone

I am the happy owner of a set JBL 4341 loudspeakers in perfect condition (original blue) .

Here is my setup:

Krell KAV400xi - Sony X707ES - Audio Alchemy DTI+XDP+PS1+PS4.
Cables: VDH MCD501 orig. + VDH DM300MK2.

I have used a friends Cimber 4VS which I think is very good for the 4341. But he needs it now I have then used VDH Clearwater, but...it doesn't work.

Is here anyone who can me a good advice. Thanks!

Below in order is a pic of an older network board, a modified rear plate with updated terminals, terminations of an exrternal network, the stock interior of a 3145 network showing the stock splades fastened to steel bolts, the same 3145 network with new binding posts of good quality (but not over the top)

[WDJ]

I design and install systems on (mostly) miltary aircraft. Most avionics (read that as "flight critical") equipment uses wirewrap connections for the internal connections.

External connections are done with crimped pins/sockets in multipin connectors (128 pins in an area approx 1.3 inches in diameter. These routinely pass 250MHz signals with zero errors while being vibrated by jet/turboprop engines and shocked by violent (but FUN!!) manuvering.

Someone earlier in this thread commented on wiring standing up to humidity/salt exposure and the like. Proper stripping (nicked strands alter impedance), proper selection of connector (fast, cheap, right - you can pick just two), good installation (don't run power in parallel to signal) all matter.

We use waveguide to pass signals to/from radar systems and have gotten loss down to 1.3 dB at 10GHz for 15 foot runs using solid copper waveguide (WR90). Coax would measure nearly 6dB (or four time the loss of WR90) loss so it really does matter! Of course the WR90 has to be designed to within 1/8 inch and ordered months ahead of your need date!

So, to me the most important parts of cabling is to get good terminations (somebody used to include in their signature the totally correct comment "tin before crimp"), use the right connection type (lug, spade, etc) and use appropriate wire sizes (check out roger-russell.com for a good description of his/McIntosh testing).

enjoy,
Wayne

[hjames]

We use waveguide to pass signals to/from radar systems and have gotten loss down to 1.3 dB at 10GHz for 15 foot runs using solid copper waveguide (WR90). Coax would measure nearly 6dB (or four time the loss of WR90) loss so it really does matter! Of course the WR90 has to be designed to within 1/8 inch and ordered months ahead of your need date!
enjoy,
Wayne

VERY Cool!
Of course, 10GigaHertz signals are a bit different than what the audio buffs in these circles are concerned with, typically 20-20k - or even with some grace, say 20 to 100k ...

[scott fitlin]

Military spec parts. The BEST their is ON EARTH! But pricey, but what a bargain when you buy certain things surplus.

The tube audio guys LOVE the military spec AB carbon comps!

Sir, I'm going to remember that statement hereafter, and forevermore, " Tin Before Crimp " !

You taught me something today, I DID not know yesterday, thank you.

[Hoerninger]

VERY Cool!
... concerned with 20-20k - or even with some grace, say 20 to 100k ...

All DC a HF engineer would say.
____________
Peter

[scott fitlin]

So, then now I have a question to pose to the wire and termination people.

We all know of the hyper 9,s copper, and silver wire made today for audio use, claimed to be superior.

Now, about a year ago, I was perusing ebay, and came across some old late 50,s cloth jacketed 22awg, stranded copper wire.

So I bought a few small 25ft spools, and having grown up in Coney island, where, as a child, many buildings dating back to the teens and 20,s, and rdes dating back into the 20,s MOST definitely existed, in far greater numbers than what is left in existence there today. Under the kiddie park, on the boardwalk, behind the Wonder Wheel, they have an old service, SOLID COPPER BUSS BARS, The Wonder Wheels motor house with its two 1920 Westinghouse motors, my grandfathers building, The Tornado Roller Coaster built in 1925, The Childs Restaurant building on W12th and Surf Av, that todays houses the Sideshow By The Seashore, which my family had owned at one time, renovated it for sale, one of the things they did, was have an ancient KNIFE swith panel, with about 40 individual 15amp knife switches, fed by a HUGE master TWO blade knife switch, removed, and replaced with a modern breaker panel.

As well as my current building having an old service with HUGE cloth jacketed wire, my electrician said was 750,000 mcm, or something like that.

I have some familiarity with old things.

Anyway, I bought the spools of wire on a whim, they weren't all that pricey, and I thought well, it looks pretty.

One day, in the way before opening time of year, I have Chip in to dismantle, service, and reassemble some games that we have, that he made a buisiness out of servicing, and Chip is GOOD!

Chip also is quite adept with a soldering iron, and in my office I open up my package to show him this antique wire. He is like WOW thats some old stuff ya got there. What are going do wih it? Well, Chip, I want to make a pair of 10ft cables, RCA to spade lug, and I know YOU can solder. No prob, he says, when do you want em? I dunno, you got a weeks work here, anytime between now and then is cool for me! Not a prob, Scotty.

The following evening, he comes in, and says let me do the wires, then Ill get back on the games! Gimme a half hour. Ok, you got it!

So, he gets to it, and he calls me over, says you know this wire has an enamel coating on it, under the cloth jacket, and its smells musty as hell, where did u find this antique stuff? I was flippin thru ebay. Ahh, I gotcha.

Anyway, he finishes my cables, I run into the ride, take what I have in there out, install these, turn system on, quiet, begin to bring some music up, I hear something, I don't know what it is, but i hear something.

Chip comes in, he knows my sound, I start playing America-Horse With No Name. Something sounds good, even he says this sounds good why do you want to put those old wires in? Chip, I did put the old wires in, so, because he has to see it, I oblige, power down, change back, return on, it isnt the same.

Power down, change, power up, we spent an hour listening to music, WHAT a difference! This was the most edge free sound, clear yet not I dunno, that electronic tizz is not there at all, something like that!

1. Am I hearing what I think Im hearing?

2. Why am hearing this using old wire like this?

3. What was different about copper years ago, as compared to the copper we have today?

All I know is, THIS made some of the nicest sounding interconnects for my system I have ever heard!

Its Western Electric Brand wire, can someone please enlighten me as to what is really going on with this, and why?

OK FORUM, there it is, I fessed up, I have special wires too! Only where everyone else seems to be looking to tomorrow, I went back into the past!

Am I crazy, or is this old copper somehow different from todays?

Oh, and BTW, the wire is clean, no white corrosion, no green oxidation, no nothing, its clean! How is that even possible?

Nonetheless, I have these wires, and THEY do make a DIFFERENCE!

[BMWCCA]

Am I crazy, or is this old copper somehow different from todays?

Yeah, they were made better —— just like those old amps!

[scott fitlin]

Yeah, they were made better —— just like those old amps!

Yeah, BUT U SHOULD hear this old wire, feeding THOSE new amps!

Metalurgically there has to be a bit of a better explanation than this!



At least i hope there is!

[BMWCCA]

Metalurgically there has to be a bit of a better explanation than this!



At least i hope there is!

Maybe you're just too young to understand that lots of stuff gets better with age! For instance I now get a 5% discount on groceries on Tuesday.
Reminds me, I have to go shopping.

[scott fitlin]

Maybe you're just too young to understand that lots of stuff gets better with age! For instance I now get a 5% discount on groceries on Tuesday.
Reminds me, I have to go shopping.

So your title is true? You really are a "SENIOR" member!

[Ducatista47]

So, to me the most important parts of cabling is to get good terminations (somebody used to include in their signature the totally correct comment "tin before crimp"), use the right connection type (lug, spade, etc) and use appropriate wire sizes (check out roger-russell.com for a good description of his/McIntosh testing).

Wayne

That was Zilch. It caused quite a dust-up in an older thread, one that could be a close relative of this discussion. There are many great posts in it. #18 by Steve Schell is a standout for me. Then again, any post by Steve is. #33 by moldyoldy is a great reference.

I admit that it is one of my favorite threads in the forums.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...ad.php?t=12870

While we are at it, does anyone know a lot about litz wire and could they share it here?

Edit: I was just reading about it on Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litz_wire
It reminded me of the right hand column, "Maximum frequency for
100% skin depth for solid conductor copper," on the chart I referenced earlier.
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...ad.php?t=12870
It seems the best solid wire gauge for using all the copper at frequencies up to 27khz is - ahem - #20. As in # 20 magnet wire, the gauge I find most recommended for high efficiency Full Range drivers.

Anything larger than 19 gauge does not use all the copper for all the audio frequencies. I don't know if that maters, but it sounds cool. Either that is good because none of the copper is unused by any frequency and there is no extra metal to affect the signal, or bad because more energy is carried in the lower frequencies and they need more copper than the higher frequencies.

The bottom line is that the skin effect does exist at audio frequencies, and it vanishes at 19 or 20 (and above) gauge solid wire. That corresponds to 100% skin depth at 21 or 27 khz. So if you need heavier cable than 19 or 20 gauge, constructing "audio" litz wire of 20-30 gauge solid wires would make sense. That seems to be engineering science, not snake oil. Just don't ask me if any of this audibly matters for audio wire.

The Hepa-litz inductors use magnet wire, it appears. The fancier, much more costly insulation found on audiophile litz wire is probably not even as good at what it is supposed to do.

Clark

[scott fitlin]

Howdy yall, at dads in Austin Tx!

I would love to hear some comments on my interconnects made from 1950,s Western electric wire, as well.

ANYONE!

Cause to me, these are NICE sounding, I have NO IDEA why this should be, and I have NO ryhme or reason to it, either.

But, someone must have some bit of info, and I LIKE these wires, alot!

[JBL 4645]

Military spec parts. The BEST their is ON EARTH! But pricey, but what a bargain when you buy certain things surplus.

The tube audio guys LOVE the military spec AB carbon comps!

Sir, I'm going to remember that statement hereafter, and forevermore, " Tin Before Crimp " !

You taught me something today, I DID not know yesterday, thank you.

Isn’t there that place out in the desert that has spare aircraft parts? I think there are several not sure of the names but I think there on the west coast side to the USA.