Loudspeakercable - help is wanted

[Ducatista47]

Quoted from a review in the Absolute Sound.

"Paul Speltz’s “anti-cable” (is) constructed of 12-gauge solid-core copper wire with a very thin red coating or dielectric. According to Speltz, it’s the minimal dielectric that accounts for the amazing clarity and virtual lack of sonic signature.

Miraculously, the cost is only $80 for an 8-foot pair with spades."

Basically he is selling magnet wire... not a bad idea, I am still a skeptic, but if you want to terminate your own wire, here is the same stuff for far less...

http://www.electronicplus.com/conten...=WR&subcat=WM1


Widget

Skepticism is good. I can tell you that using modest gauge magnet wire to replace nice heavy gauge Kimber at the very least does no harm. So much for needing heavy wire or cable for high efficiency drivers. I am not in a position to declare improvements; listening to the music is taking precedence over critical listening of the system performance - so it is working very well indeed. It seems the magnet wire gets in the way of detail less than larger wire and cable. I can't prove it.

I get one pound spools of double insulated for twenty dollars here: http://www.oemwire.com/smagwire1.htm

This is exactly the right idea Widget. A decent sized peice of metal with minimal insulation is the best. The insulation on the cable is the only thing that can effect the "sound" coming out the end of the cable. Some people say that they can hear the difference in the metals but I cant say I have heard it. You do however notice a huge difference in a poor quality cable with a lot of capacitance in the insulation. Magnet wire should be the ultimate but it is not very practical.

Could you elaborate on how magnet wire is not very practical for you? I find it quite convenient but do admit that I had to rethink how to run wire. It is easy if you use 18-22 gauge for the woofers and 26 or so for the tweeters. I am not the only one to find that heavier wire and more complex cables seem to loose subtlety and clarity in the resulting sound. If the rest of your system is capable of that subtlety and clarity, it goes without saying. I am tending to believe Steve Schell that lighter magnet wire is usually better than heavier magnet wire!

To me, magnet wire sounds better than expensive cable. It is for that that I use it, not for the price.


Clark

[Allanvh5150]

It is pratical inside cabinets. I was meaning that for amp to speaker cabling it can easily get damaged and so on. In a fixed installation it shoud be fine.

[Ducatista47]

That is what I thought you meant. I was also faced with doubt at the prospect of running what looks like bare wire through the air to my crossover and along the floor to the speakers. We have eight cats, five dogs, three teenage humans and my own clumsy feet.

So far, after eight months, no damage at all, not so much as a kink. The 26 gauge to the tweeters is dark green and does not attract feline attention. The rest is 20 and 22 gauge and has proved to be very strong. Indestructible, in fact.

The wire is, after all, made of metal stronger than any normally encountered insulation covering and is not really bare. When you scrape off some insulation to make a connection or solder, it becomes apparent how really tough the thin coatings are. This stuff will not scrape off by accident. Step on it all you want. If you are really paranoid about this, the higher temperature rating coatings are a double layer of two dissimilar dielectrics, thicker at no additional cost. They are designed for motor windings as opposed to transformers and are incredibly tough. One of the coatings is nylon and is actually flexible.

Between using binding posts and soldering direct connections where possible (almost everywhere, a practice I endorse), nothing needed to be terminated. Much less costly and a much better signal path. I have forgone my usual beloved spade lugs; they are totally unnecessary with magnet wire.

The whole process has proved to be a win-win scenario, highly recommended. If you want to experiment with this on the cheap, Radio Shack has a 22-26-30 gauge package for five dollars US. I have already posted above a link to one source of many available where spools can be reasonably obtained for the price of a couple of feet of normal audio wire. The page I linked to happens to be for the heavier, two coating insulation. Widget has been kind enough to provide another.

Clark

[Ducatista47]

If the idea of using thinner rather than thicker wire seems counter intuitive, let me ignore the audio cable babble. Take a look at the chart here: http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm Compiled by engineers, not salesmen.

Remember, with sensitive speakers capable of high resolution and detail, too much metal in wire is a bad idea. See John Wyckoff's findings from his five years of experimenting to design the Super 12's. He noticed that even binding posts with too much metal adversely affected the sound. Most practical work in this field, again ignoring the babble by those trying to sell something, have found that too little resistance in wire is not a good thing when connecting amps to speakers. 20 gauge solid wire has 10.15 ohms per thousand feet. That is still a very small amount for a typical ten or twenty foot run.

The chart will show that anything larger than 18 gauge is complete overkill for reasonably efficient speakers, almost everything we discuss on these forums. Note the ohms per 1000 feet and maximum amps for power transmission (a very conservative rating) figures. The number for 20 gauge is 1.5 amps. With 88-103 dB/watt/meter, would you want 1.5 amps continuous or even peak through your speakers?

This "requirement" of using large wire or cable for home audio really needs to be put to rest.

Clark

[Mr. Widget]

Remember, with sensitive speakers capable of high resolution and detail, too much metal in wire is a bad idea. See John Wyckoff's findings from his five years of experimenting to design the Super 12's. He noticed that even binding posts with too much metal adversely affected the sound.

I was going with you up until this part... too much? We basically want as minimal a voltage drop between amp and load as possible... how can a slab of CU be a problem?


Widget

[Ducatista47]

I was going with you up until this part... too much? We basically want as minimal a voltage drop between amp and load as possible... how can a slab of CU be a problem?

Widget

I will defer to those with more cred than myself. Ask Steve Schell. I must note that nearly everyone in the Full Range/Single Driver community, users of efficient speakers capable of startling resolution (and usually users of those little amps we both know can yield this type of result), has found that as a practical matter larger wire kills the detail and subtlety. I know, I know, this only matters if your system is up to it and you sit in the sweet spot, I agree. But I thought that was the whole idea of High Fidelity!

How could this be possible? Wire fulfills multiple functions in audio connections. Many interactions occur and resistance is only one of them. We are talking about at the least an amplifier-wire-speaker interaction, and even a speaker is usually a complex system in itself. The amplifier certainly is. Using a purely scientific point of view, I can accept that the large wire used to obtain the lowest resistance - in other words probably the lower resistance itself - could impart other properties to the end result. To conclude these properties would always be desirable would be unscientific. Synergy is a pretty fundamental concept and far be it from me to ignore it. That is why I use a lot of listening to decide what works. Conventional wisdom is pretty spotty and should always be subject to personal verification.

Dynamics at extreme volume might be another story, but that has nothing to do with High Fidelity.

I suggest to those who do have a high detail, high resolution system - why not give it a try? It might run you twenty dollars tops and a little time. Like anything else, if you don't like it just change back to what you do like. If you feel uncomfortable not spending more money on wire, 20 gauge Litz wire has a following. I doubt it is as good or better than magnet wire, but it does impress visitors.

Clark

[Mr. Widget]

I suggest to those who do have a high detail, high resolution system - why not give it a try?

I'll put it on the to do list, but I remain quite skeptical.


Widget

[Ducatista47]

You are a good man, Mr Widget. The only reason I ever gave it a try was because I was skeptical.

Even if you find it simply does no harm, think of the money you will save in the future. And the copper you will free for likely developments like electric cars and a new generation of thermonuclear warheads.

If I were a snake oil type salesman I would say that since most of this magnet wire is made in the PRC, the inevitable doses of Melamine, chicken droppings and lead in the coatings have miracle audio properties.

Clark

[Ducatista47]

Another thread reminded me of this. The mysterious green oxidation that besets some cables will never happen with magnet wire. In fact, being designed for very hostile environments (heat, ozone, rapid movement, etc.) the motor winding type should be bulletproof to nearly any aging factor. I suspect its single insulated cousin is just as good regarding anything but very high temperatures - and even in that case the difference would apply only when tightly wound.

The bond between the insulation and the wire is so intimate that there is no way for anything to infiltrate.

Over the years I have noticed that even when a transformer's steel laminations are seriously rusted, the wire itself is pristine unless it has been burned out. Using magnet wire as audio wire is extremely low stress compared to its intended use.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...295#post225295

Clark

[scott fitlin]

The bond between the insulation and the wire is so intimate that there is no way for anything to infiltrate.



Clark[/quote]Not even for a THREESOME with a TEFLON? DAYUM!






P.S. I'm sorry Clark, I couldn't help it I'm laughing so hard! It was just the use of the word "intimate" that got me to thinking!

[Ian Mackenzie]

Scotty,

Not a much after that ride at Coney Island.

On cables I think it common knowledge that the cable should be proportioned to the current its passes.

How much current passes through a compression driver or a tweeter?

In JBL speaker manuals they make reference to selecting cables for bi wiring.

In the case of inductors it is also acknowledged that in some instances Solen litz chokes are the preferred type for HF filters

[scott fitlin]

Ian, I have NO DOUBT that certain types of wires, and different gauges make a difference to sound we hear.

And that some things just work better with some things etc.

THAT post before, Its just funnin around. I am in a great mood, its humor thats all.

I don't always adhere to the White lab Coat, and Strictly the Data, principle.

But, honestly, its just a BIT of fun.

[Ducatista47]

On cables I think it common knowledge that the cable should be proportioned to the current its passes.

How much current passes through a compression driver or a tweeter?

I have a feeling that in a sensitive system it doesn't do much good to use wire much larger than the voice coil wire. For short runs, anyway.

Look at a fire hose cable feeding a voice coil and you can see how nonsensical it must be from an electrical standpoint.

In the case of inductors it is also acknowledged that in some instances Solen litz chokes are the preferred type for HF filters

We have both used Hepa-Litz inductors. They really seem to do the job, do they not? At least they sure look cool.

Scotty, I sure set myself up for that one! I remember looking at the word and thinking, "Maybe not a good choice..."

Clark

[scott fitlin]

Well I will add something to this about wire ga, and so on, now I subscribe to the Richard Long sound, that was Studio54, and The Paradise Garage, and when we went the RLA route, they told my uncle 16ga,14ga,12ga, and 10ga. We were like HUH what?

So they explained it again;

Tweeters -16ga wire.

2in compression drivers -14ga wire.

15in woofers -12ga wire.

Subs - 10ga wire.

My uncle asked why that small wire on tweeters, and why in this order?

Because thats how you do it, is the answer we got.

So, we did it the way they said to do it.

But, these guys, the things they did, they had a reason for doing it, I know they did, because they did things that all the other sound people and some companies said you couldn't hear, or wasnt correct.

But, IF your club had an RLA system, your club had a sound NOT many others clubs had.

And the speaker wire runs in a club like Studio, this wasnt 10ft runs, or 25ft runs, THIS was a BIG club, an old 1920,s Opera house turned television soundstage in the 50,s that was turned into a club in the 70,s. And NOT ENOUGH SOUND was NOT a problem here, BUT this sound set the world on fire. Then he did that Paradise Garage, MAN, that was a place to go HEAR MUSIC.

And Richards big systems were pretty much ALL horn loaded cabinets, lens horns, (2397,s as well in the Garage), and Bullet, and Slot tweeters.

And to this day, I follow that wiring size they layed out to us years ago!

Basshorns, and HF horns is all they really had to do BIG rooms that NEEDED BIG sound. And they had the knack for this horn loaded stuff, for nightclub use. They did something, THERE was a reason they did it!

I don't knock it, to me, I have more than just a feeling theres something to some of this stuff, as just like me, I know when you guys say hear something, YOU HEAR SOMETHING, I know you do. Cause that is just the PASSION in us, AUDIO is the thing.

I still use that wiring size guide, and I havent any problems.

For sure, I like reading what you have to say!

[Ian Mackenzie]

Ian, I have NO DOUBT that certain types of wires, and different gauges make a difference to sound we hear.

And that some things just work better with some things etc.

THAT post before, Its just funnin around. I am in a great mood, its humor thats all.

I don't always adhere to the White lab Coat, and Strictly the Data, principle.

But, honestly, its just a BIT of fun.

I appreciate the guesture... its all quite amusing.

Its even more fun spending some else's cash to get it right

There are some honest people in the industry.

Its a case of talking the the right people and they believe me they are not the skeptics.


Ian