What's "real" bass??

[Doc Mark]

Greetings, Friends,

Today, whilst listening to some Diana Krall CD's, I gave thought to, exactly, what might be considered "real" bass reproduction. I've long thought that this most certainly depended upon what your musical background, and thus your musical expectations, might be.

For myself, I played music professionally for about 30 years, and in that time, worked as a singing drummer, and also as a lead vocalist/front man, for large horn-oriented bands. To me, bass does not sound "real", unless it's the same as what I heard from the bass player, who was always situated right next to my old Ludwig drum set. Same goes for bands with horns, and also for recorded drums, too. Any speaker which cannot accurately reproduce what I heard, and almost more importantly, felt, during those years, is not reproducing "real" bass.

Others of you may have different requirements, stemming from very different musical backgrounds. So, let's hear what your expectations are, please, and what experiences in your life have helped to create those expectations of what you consider "real" bass reproduction. I very much look forward to hearing what you have to say, Friends! Thanks, in advance, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[grumpy]

"Real" Bass? (random thoughts on how I listen sometimes, not intended as a definition)

For "bass viol or guitar" instruments -

Being able to discern:

1) if Acoustic Bass or Electric Bass (some systems don't even resolve at this level)
2) what kind of bass (e.g., P-bass/Jazz vs. Rick, flat-wound, vs. roto strings, ...)
3) space the bass was recorded in

All very dependent on the recording quality and musical style.

Other criteria for:
organ (harmonics) or synth (filter whining) bass ...
kick-drum or even large tom "bass"... percussiveness vs. boom...
category I'll call "sound effects", that while not necessarily musical, can be an
involving element in a recording, especially "live" (vs. studio)

Note that much of the info needed for what I'd call "real" bass doesn't necessarily
extend to 20Hz (often), and -depends- on the balance and representation of mids and
even treble. At volume, a good visceral whump in the chest or pant-leg flutter can
add some 'realism', ... or it can cover up a lack of it.



Have some experience playing bass-range instruments,
running sound FOH/foldback (most recently for a 20-piece big band
group), and hobbyist recording.

[Hoerninger]

It is a great experience to listen to an open baffle bass in the garden.
It made me thinking.
Btw I am a lover of full horn systems when done carefully.
___________
Peter

[hjames]

Emma officiated a wedding in the George Washington National Forest a month or so back, tho it was drizzling and raining, the live music was quite nice!
Good Bass!

[Tom Brennan]

Well it depends on what the music is I reckon. I've played drums in rock and roll bands and most of the music I listen to is rock and roll, soul and movie soundtracks (I'm talking the music not the sound effects---Ben-Hur, El Cid, South Pacific, West Side Story etc.). None of which need to go below 50hz to sound good.

The best bass playing rig I ever heard was a Dual Showman using dual D-140s in the Fender sealed box, I doubt that rig was going much below 70hz or so but it sure sounded good. I doubt that the Ampeg R-100 I play bass through goes very low either but it's a nice sounding amp.

One of the best reproductions of recorded electric bass I heard was listening to the Blues Brothers laserdisc mono through an old vertical vent Altec 825 cabinet with the original 803 woofer. Now I KNOW that wasn't going deep but it was doing something right for listening to Duck Dunn.

I've owned Rogers, Gretsch and Sonor drumkits with 20, 22 and 24" bassdrums. The 24 Sonor sounded like thunder but the little 20" Rogers had a punch and clarity I really liked. I knew a fella that played an old Camco kit with an 18, it sounded very nice.

What this translates to in speakers for me is if I can get 40hz with excellent clarity and dynamics I'm good.

[johnaec]

The best bass playing rig I ever heard was a Dual Showman using dual D-140s in the Fender sealed box, I doubt that rig was going much below 70hz or so but it sure sounded good.......What this translates to in speakers for me is if I can get 40hz with excellent clarity and dynamics I'm good.

Well, seeing as 40 hz is about low E on a bass guitar, I'd bet that Dual Showman was putting out below 70 hz.

Way back when, Bell Labs did some experiments that demonstrated the fact that the human ear is able to "synthesize" sounds an octave below what's really there, if your ear is "expecting" to hear it. They used this phenomenon to much benefit in telephone systems, where they were able to squeeze much more data into telephone transmissions by leaving the low octaves off - the same holds true in radio, like CB and emergency radios and such. Even though the low octaves are left off, the human ear will "synthesize" the missing frequencies, resulting in inteligible conversations even though the low frequencies have been left out.

I wonder if this same phenomenon is what many people experience when they like the bass, even when the lowest octaves might be missing?

John

[toddalin]

"Real Bass" is the artillery fire I can hear/feel at Camp Pendleton beyond the hills/mountains over 60 miles away that shakes my garage doors.

[Ducatista47]

Both of my brushes with nature being very loud left a lasting impression. The last one was sort of a nature-techno mix. Lightning struck a pole top transformer - those large gray cans filled with oil, I think - about two hundred feet away. The lightning (thunder) was plenty loud by itself, but the transformer blew up and that was a life changing experience. Everything, not just the ground, shook with a deep motion. It was like the neighborhood rang like a bell, but at very low frequency.

My other encounter was more personal. I was working up on my girlfriend's roof many years ago, on Elmhurst Road in Mount Prospect, Illinois. A sudden storm came up and lightning struck the roof right across the street. Strangely, I saw the whole thing. I happened to be looking right at it and my visual pictures (we see in changing "frames") caught all the right moments. The stepped leader came down, establishing the conducting channel. It was glowing brightly and easy to see in detail. As soon as it made contact with the roof, the return stroke expanded the channel to what looked like four inches across and became unbearably bright, all the way to the cloud, I'm sure, but I wasn't looking up. That was the boom, but I didn't hear it! It was so loud I heard a quick crackling hiss and then nothing. My "sensors" overloaded and all was silent, although afterward I could hear normally immediately.

So where was the bass? The concussion was so terrific I was knocked back and it was all I could do to stay on the roof. To this day I am never really physically impressed by chest thumping bass. It just does not compare to that giant hand swatting me like a fly, all with nothing but sound, the movement of air. But I can appreciate bass you can feel but not hear!

Back to topic, double bass - string bass - live is my benchmark for "real" bass. I am still waiting for a system that will do it justice. Even the Patricia Barber recordings pale next to the real thing, and I have heard them on some very good systems.

The XRCD24 disc Super Double Bass - The Artistry of Gary Karr, is a treat though. Bass and pipe organ. The CD is a collection from twenty years of recordings. On the right system, if it exists, it just might do the job. LIM XR 007. Mastered with loving care and consummate skill by the best team in Japan.

Clark

[grumpy]

"Real Bass" is the artillery fire I can hear/feel at Camp Pendleton beyond the hills/mountains over 60 miles away that shakes my garage doors.

Heh... or nearly every dingety dang night at 9:25pm from Disneyland.

Hi Clark, good you weren't near the path of least resistance
I'll have a look for that JVC disc.... thanks. A good acoustic bass
recording/playback can bring on the goosebumps.

[Ducatista47]

No problem, Grumpy. Gary Karr is a little different. He plays the bass like a cello. Hearing those notes coming from that huge body is a new experience. If you have the volume nicely cranked for the first selection, Amazing Grace, your system's bass reproduction and macrodynamics will be tested when the pipe organ takes a turn, and you had better be holding onto something. The entire recording is breathtakingly, achingly beautiful to hear if you like this sort of music. Hopefully your CD player does 24 bit. Most of the sampled albums were recorded in halls selected for their acoustics instead of recording studios. Hearing the rooms is frankly thrilling. These producers and engineers are on to something, and Vega Hall where the album Adagio d' Albinoni was recorded sounds fascinating in particular. I have heard that on LP.

Fireworks are something else. My favorite is still the aerial bombs. Around here they use one to wake you up and begin things. Everyone jumps...

Another acoustic reality check, a personal favorite of mine, is to stand right next to a railway locomotive as it accelerates. Does the Earth move for you too?

I'm stubborn. I seldom take the path of least resistance.

Clark

[Hoerninger]

... over 60 miles away that shakes my garage doors.

Uff.
For us non-front-liners there are some soundfiles by Tom Daniel:
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/techn...downloads.html
(Care for the warning near the bottom of the page.)

I wonder if this same phenomenon is what many people experience when they like the bass, even when the lowest octaves might be missing?

Some explanation you will find here, (unfortunately there is no direct replacement for the no longer available IC which was not expensive):
http://headwize.com/projects/showfil...meier5_prj.htm
The attached wave file contains
5 seconds 100 Hz sine wave
5 seconds 50 Hz sine wave
5 seconds 25 Hz sine wave
5 seconds 100 Hz sine wave + bass enhancer
5 seconds 50 Hz sine wave + bass enhancer
5 seconds 25 Hz sine wave + bass enhancer
____________
Peter

[Rolf]

For me, ... "real bass" or real sound, is what I have heard over the years at concerts with different artists. What I remember best is the very good sound on FZ concerts.

That is why I love my JBL's so much, as I have never heard any other systems come so close to the real thing. That said, I know there is impossible to get the exact feeling at home as on a concert, but the 4343's are very close.

That is why I love listening to "live" recordings, tho I know there has been added and mixed a lot on the record (CD).

I do not, like many of you ever played in a band. I can't play any instrument, but I have always loved listening to music, and listening experience I have.

[Hoerninger]

The XRCD24 disc Super Double Bass - The Artistry of Gary Karr, is a treat though. Bass and pipe organ. ... On the right system, if it exists, it just might do the job.

The audio samples (mp3) show, it is very demanding!
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/jazz/detail/-/hnum/1088935

Clark, thank you for the tipp - and sharing your experience!
___________
Peter

[JBLRaiser]

Greetings, Friends,

Today, whilst listening to some Diana Krall CD's, I gave thought to, exactly, what might be considered "real" bass reproduction. I've long thought that this most certainly depended upon what your musical background, and thus your musical expectations, might be.

For myself, I played music professionally for about 30 years, and in that time, worked as a singing drummer, and also as a lead vocalist/front man, for large horn-oriented bands. To me, bass does not sound "real", unless it's the same as what I heard from the bass player, who was always situated right next to my old Ludwig drum set. Same goes for bands with horns, and also for recorded drums, too. Any speaker which cannot accurately reproduce what I heard, and almost more importantly, felt, during those years, is not reproducing "real" bass.

Others of you may have different requirements, stemming from very different musical backgrounds. So, let's hear what your expectations are, please, and what experiences in your life have helped to create those expectations of what you consider "real" bass reproduction. I very much look forward to hearing what you have to say, Friends! Thanks, in advance, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Is FELT not heard.

[1audiohack]

Clark and I have two of the same benchmarks.

When I was much younger we lived in a railroad town, we used to climb the trestles over the rivers, sit on the crossmembers in the center, and wait for the freighters to come out of the yard. The thrill of an eight engine unit at full power right below you is sonically thrillling. That would in fact be tough to duplicate. I never claimed to be very smart!

I have also been in close proximity to lightning, twice. Once was hit by the flying bark from the tree it hit less than 15 feet away. It took a few seconds to figure out what had happened.

If I remember right, 194dB is the thearetical limit for air to transmit sound before becoming overmodulated. A lightning bolt heats the air so fast that the expanding wave, the CRACK, leaves behind an almost complete vacuum, the air rushing backto restore equilibrium is the BOOM. More of an N wave. I'm pretty sure that would be impossible to duplicate.

I don't know if it's real bass, but it is a real LF benchmark.