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Thread: TAD Compression Drivers - Opinions on TD-4001 vs. 4003?

  1. #1
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    TAD Compression Drivers - Opinions on TD-4001 vs. 4003?

    Hi all,

    l have just joined this forum today after lurking for a few weeks. l hate to think how much of my life has been spent reading through the wealth of information in old threads

    l am putting together a TAD MTM system using some professionally made cabinets and would like some opinions on TAD compression drivers. Originally l was intending using TAD 4001's and wood horn clones as these are what l have first hand experience with. However l have stumbled onto some 4003 drivers and Resin horn clones, these will cost me about 40% more to buy including shipping.

    Having never heard the 4003 l was wanting to hear from others on whether the extra cost is worth it? l have read that the 4003 is better in the top end but is it a significant difference, or only slight? l am worried that the Audiophile in me will always be saying "love the sound but you should have gone the 4003"

    Cheers,
    mondie

  2. #2
    Senior Moment Member Oldmics's Avatar
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    I vote 4001-

    Oldmics

  3. #3
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondie View Post
    l have read that the 4003 is better in the top end but is it a significant difference, or only slight?
    The top end is not where the magic is happening. In my opinion neither of these drivers really works without a tweeter. I realize that TAD used both of them in large two-way monitors, but I disagree with their approach. While they work very well in that application, I find the air and delicate shimmer achieved once a tweeter is properly integrated is well worth the extra expense.

    I have listened extensively to both drivers and while they share the trait of delivering spectacular detail resolution and a very neutral, low distortion sound, in these instances the 4003 is decidedly superior. Is it worth the extra expense? For me, I felt it was, but it may not be the case for everyone.


    Widget

  4. #4
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    Is it Th-4003 or 4001 wood clones ?

    mats
    4345 diy, K2/Array diy Ht. TAD 4 way diy.

  5. #5
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    The 4001 driver would be run with a C.A.R. Maple clone, the 4003 with a resin clone.

    Widget, l have been wondering about a supertweeter. Could be tricky to integrate one into the box but l have been considering this. The cost difference between 4001 and 4003 would cover the cost of some ET-703's

    Thanks for the replys, keep the opinions coming

    Cheers,
    mondie

  6. #6
    Senior Moment Member Oldmics's Avatar
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    3 Way-Different Ball Game

    I agree with the Widget in regards to either driver should utilise a super tweeter as long as the drivers are running naturally (non-enhanced) within their energy centers.

    The ET 703 is the finest sounding hi freq device that I have ever had the pleasure to listen to.

    Now lets start to split hairs.

    Comparison of the 4001 to the 4003 is not an apples to apples contest.

    4001 alnico 1 15/16 outlet orifice compared to the 4003 neo material with an 1 1/2 outlet brings a few tricks to the table.

    The smaller 4003 outlet has less distortion at higher SPL levels compared to the 4001.

    For a smaller home application I still feel that the 4001 is a better sounding driver-just my preference.

    If you were going to use some digital trickery to enhance the hi freq (Lake,XTA,DEQX) you could probably stay two way and use the processer power to jam the hi freq thru the roof using a 4003.

    If that were the case then I would use the 4003 since now the eqed spl levels will be enhanced and distortion now comes into play.

    So to recap-moderate listening levels,I say 3 way-4001 and ET 703

    Loud levels,4003 and digital speaker processer tricks.

    Oldmics

  7. #7
    Senior Member Guido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondie View Post
    However l have stumbled onto some 4003 drivers and Resin horn clones, these will cost me about 40% more to buy including shipping.
    Welcome Mondie

    Is it a secret where these horn clones come from?
    I ask because many members would also be interested in such horns.

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    Oldmics,

    Thanks for the hair splitting, l appreciate your opinion. Since my primary source is vinyl l would much prefer to go analogue active. l am leaning towards a Marchand XM44 to get going and then once l have determined my xover slopes/point play around with passive on the 4001's. Adding 703's could be done passively to l guess. My main concern with adding the 703's is time alignment more than anything. the cabinets are large boxes with a flat baffle, l would think alignment would be critical and l dont have much room for variation, would you agree? l guess time delay is one advantage digital XO offers.

    l like your logic and the 4001/703 might be a good way to go, thanks for posting your experiences. TAD system are very rare in Australia, l only know of two other users athough l am sure there are a few more, but either way we dont have much experience here to go round.

    cheers,
    mondie

  9. #9
    soundmanshorty
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    I agree

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    The top end is not where the magic is happening. In my opinion neither of these drivers really works without a tweeter. I realize that TAD used both of them in large two-way monitors, but I disagree with their approach. While they work very well in that application, I find the air and delicate shimmer achieved once a tweeter is properly integrated is well worth the extra expense.

    I have listened extensively to both drivers and while they share the trait of delivering spectacular detail resolution and a very neutral, low distortion sound, in these instances the 4003 is decidedly superior. Is it worth the extra expense? For me, I felt it was, but it may not be the case for everyone.


    Widget
    I am using the 4002 on TAD horns without the 2 inch adapter, so i am using it as a 1 1/2 in exit horn & i still went with the ET 703s because i wanted that extra air and extension. There is no tweeter like the 703 if you can get a pair get them.

    The top end is nice on the the 4002 but i agree you need a tweeter. I dont use any eq except for a Thrive Audio 5 band program eq, for when i have to eq a song on the fly that is a poor sounding digital mix that i get at times, other then that i leave it flat with real music , like classical, jazz, or big band when i listen to this which is most of the time now since i built this system.

    If you have a good box design and any of these fine drivers, 01, 02 or 03, or any TAD products in your system for that matter, you should not need these over hyped dont deliver as promised digital processors that never sound rt, Expecially in a home hifi system. So forget about that, a fine Analog processor will work amazing, so you wont have to over process your home hifi system and it will sound natural.

    In my home system i have a nice xover with some tube processing to warm up the source on cd, I dont have a room eq, so i have minimal processing and it sounds amazing.

    Another thought and way for you to go ,

    I think if you go the 01 & the et 703s you will gain greater results the just going with the 4003s, I have never heard the 03 but i would imagine them to be amazimng, i actually prefer the 4002 over the 01 with todays music and the way it is produced and mastered



    www.systemsbyshorty.com

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    Check out the pix section to see some projects i am working on and have done in the past
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  10. #10
    soundmanshorty
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    Tru

    Quote Originally Posted by Mondie View Post
    Oldmics,

    Thanks for the hair splitting, l appreciate your opinion. Since my primary source is vinyl l would much prefer to go analogue active. l am leaning towards a Marchand XM44 to get going and then once l have determined my xover slopes/point play around with passive on the 4001's. Adding 703's could be done passively to l guess. My main concern with adding the 703's is time alignment more than anything. the cabinets are large boxes with a flat baffle, l would think alignment would be critical and l dont have much room for variation, would you agree? l guess time delay is one advantage digital XO offers.

    l like your logic and the 4001/703 might be a good way to go, thanks for posting your experiences. TAD system are very rare in Australia, l only know of two other users athough l am sure there are a few more, but either way we dont have much experience here to go round.

    cheers,
    mondie
    I use the XM 44 and love it, I have been using them in clubs and they work incredible and they are very easy to mod for your taste ,,,,

  11. #11
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondie View Post
    My main concern with adding the 703's is time alignment more than anything. the cabinets are large boxes with a flat baffle, l would think alignment would be critical and l dont have much room for variation, would you agree? l guess time delay is one advantage digital XO offers.
    Hi Mondie,
    I have no first hand experience with any of these drivers, but here is a link to a Project May blog entry about supertweeter integration method for the K2 S9800:

    http://www.audioheritage.org/html/pr...og/2004-08.htm
    (August 12)
    According to JBL's Greg Timbers: "The comb filter effect is normal and cannot be eliminated, even with the use of electronic delay. The wavelength at 10k is an inch or less and even if the 045be were delayed to the z plane of the 435Be, even the slightest movement up, down, left or right of the measurement position would change the relative path length between the 435Be and 045Be to where the interference pattern would return.

    What I have done is use a 4th order on the 045Be high pass and adjusted the values using substantial smoothing on the frequency response curve. The polarity does seem to matter in getting the smoothest "smoothed" curve.

    I originally had the 045Be coming in where the main 435Be cuts off (15k) which cost less parts, but we could hear the 045Be as a separate location and it was distracting. I found that 8k - 10k minimized this effect. In spite of the curve, we have had no negative comments about the 045Be and the choppy response through the crossover range."


    So even time aligned there is not much to do at such frequencies. The only way is to use sharp slopes to reduce the overlap. Digital FIR could be used to almost eliminate any overlap.

  12. #12
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondie View Post
    My main concern with adding the 703's is time alignment more than anything. the cabinets are large boxes with a flat baffle, l would think alignment would be critical and l dont have much room for variation, would you agree? l guess time delay is one advantage digital XO offers.
    Hi Mondie,
    I have no first hand experience with any of these drivers, but here is a link to a Project May blog entry about supertweeter integration method for the K2 S9800:

    http://www.audioheritage.org/html/pr...og/2004-08.htm
    (August 12)
    According to JBL's Greg Timbers: "The comb filter effect is normal and cannot be eliminated, even with the use of electronic delay. The wavelength at 10k is an inch or less and even if the 045be were delayed to the z plane of the 435Be, even the slightest movement up, down, left or right of the measurement position would change the relative path length between the 435Be and 045Be to where the interference pattern would return.

    What I have done is use a 4th order on the 045Be high pass and adjusted the values using substantial smoothing on the frequency response curve. The polarity does seem to matter in getting the smoothest "smoothed" curve.

    I originally had the 045Be coming in where the main 435Be cuts off (15k) which cost less parts, but we could hear the 045Be as a separate location and it was distracting. I found that 8k - 10k minimized this effect. In spite of the curve, we have had no negative comments about the 045Be and the choppy response through the crossover range."
    So even when time aligned there is not much to do at such frequencies. The only way is to use sharp slopes to reduce the overlap. Maybe a digital FIR crossover could be used to almost eliminate any overlap.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Hi Mondi,

    I have seen your project on another forums. There are more Tad driver in use down here than first thought but more so in professional installations.

    Perhaps one way of approaching this is to find out how the horns in your system perform on paper with a particular driver if that data is available like response curves and waterfall decay graphs...ask the box builder.

    I mean impressions are just that without some real data to support what may or may not be heard.

    If you are unhappy with your current drivers then please by all means let me know as I am local.

    Ian

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guido View Post
    Welcome Mondie

    Is it a secret where these horn clones come from?
    I ask because many members would also be interested in such horns.
    Guido,

    Thanks for the welcoming words. l have sent you a PM regarding the horns.

    Quote Originally Posted by soundmanshorty View Post
    I think if you go the 01 & the et 703s you will gain greater results the just going with the 4003s, I have never heard the 03 but i would imagine them to be amazimng, i actually prefer the 4002 over the 01 with todays music and the way it is produced and mastered

    www.systemsbyshorty.com

    www.myspace.com/soundmanshorty
    Check out the pix section to see some projects i am working on and have done in the past
    Shorty,

    l suspect you are correct, the 4001 with ET703 is perhaps the best way to spend the $$, the cost of this combo is about the same as 4003 Drivers & horns alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by soundmanshorty View Post
    I use the XM 44 and love it, I have been using them in clubs and they work incredible and they are very easy to mod for your taste ,,,,
    Great feedback, l am close to placing my order for the XM44. l am still holding out for that Pass Labs XVR-1 to fall off the back of a truck, but l don't think its going to happen

    Quote Originally Posted by pos View Post
    Hi Mondie,
    I have no first hand experience with any of these drivers, but here is a link to a Project May blog entry about supertweeter integration method for the K2 S9800:

    http://www.audioheritage.org/html/projectmay/blog/2004-08.htm
    (August 12)

    So even time aligned there is not much to do at such frequencies. The only way is to use sharp slopes to reduce the overlap. Digital FIR could be used to almost eliminate any overlap.[/size][/font][/font]
    Thanks for the link, its an interesting problem and one which l have no real first hand experience of. l have attached a couple of pics of the MTM cabinets at the bottom of my post. Its not an ideal setup for adding a 703, if l mount it into the baffle then the 703's acoustic centre will actually be the closest of all the drivers, not ideal at all. The link implies there is not much that can be done because of the tiny wavelengths but l wonder if some basic TA is needed to at least get close to acceptable integration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Hi Mondi,

    I have seen your project on another forums. There are more Tad driver in use down here than first thought but more so in professional installations.

    Perhaps one way of approaching this is to find out how the horns in your system perform on paper with a particular driver if that data is available like response curves and waterfall decay graphs...ask the box builder.

    I mean impressions are just that without some real data to support what may or may not be heard.

    If you are unhappy with your current drivers then please by all means let me know as I am local.

    Ian
    Hi ian,

    Great to see a fellow Aussie and TAD user. Whereabouts in Oz is "The Tardis"? TAD is certainly rare in Australia, l dont believe Pioneer even support it here.

    It will be a good 6 weeks before l have the cabinets landed in Australia and all the drivers imported. Woofers will be 1601a's, and either the 4001 or 4003 with clones of the matching TAD horn. Hopefully the horn response will be as TAD intended but time will tell. Thanks for the offer of help - l cannot wait to get the system together and running. l recently heard a pair of TAD based speakers being made by Parmenter Audio in NZ that opened by eyes to TAD and horns, this could be just the beginning of a long ride

    Cheers,
    mondie

  15. #15
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    Some may recognise the cabinets l have bought for this project, they were the subject of an old thread on the Asylum a few years back. l have bought the bare cabinets, originally they were built with 1601a and 4003 as shown.

    Would an ET-703 sunk into the baffle offset to the side above the horn have any chance of working at all? If not l dont see too many other options.

    Cheers,
    Mondie




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