Page 1 of 14 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 210

Thread: An E2 inspired loudspeaker: Quick but not dirty

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    7,942

    An E2 inspired loudspeaker: Quick but not dirty

    Following recent prolific musings over E2 inspired ideas in the E2 clone thread I have elected to open a new thread on my own project.

    I welcome on lookers and feedback but please refrain from splashing Monet's palette or Rolf Harris's 6 inch brush with subject matter that is just not relevant. It just makes it hard for those with a genuine interest to follow the real proceedings.

    (Dont expect posts here every day or hundreds of SPL graphs. Do expect and system that sounds good and measures well. Sound Easy and various other tools will assist with optomising the system. In my experience most real problems are audible and the tools just help pin down where they are)

    The notion behind my project is from the opening pages of the Everest and K2 product brochures. The idea being to bring to the table a 2 way based system that will deliver a very smooth, coherent and detailed sound not found in the earlier 43XX systems with hi sensitivity, low power compression and very low distortion. Will it be an MTM ? No. Will this be a rediculously expensive project. No. But dont expect it to be wife friendly.

    Using a 2435 Be driver with acqualas treatment is preferred over titanium based/aquaplas treated drivers because of the superior resolution that beryllium brings to compression drivers. Careful selection of the woofer will it is hoped ensure that a higher crossover point deemed acceptable for the 2435 Be does not compromise performance.

    My logic here is that superior accuracy can be obtained over titamium based compression drivers with good quality direct radiator 2 and 3 way systems so much so that a compromise in overall sensitivity is acceptable. But Beryllium in a properly execute horn/wave guide can offer resolution and sensitivity not found any other way.

    It is not envisaged that a multiway horn system using 4 inch large format drivers will be explored.

    The high frequency horn will be sourced from elsewhere because to the best of my knowledge the better quality JBL consumer horns are unobtainable now. It is intended that several types of full size horns will be trialed in the course of developing the project to explore and compare how they effect the sound.

    Some links here to various horn offerings
    http://www.artec-france.com/etudes.php?system=compact&item=pavillon&lang=en
    http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=123500/lpost123500
    http://www.users.uswest.net/~ddshorns/cfd2-90x.htm
    http://www.users.uswest.net/~ddshorns/cfd2-110.htm
    http://www.azurahorn.com/azurahorn_links.html

    Links to various woofers:



    http://www.akoustik.fr/tad.php?RubID=5&r=Woofer
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=21713
    http://www.precision-devices.com/showdetails.asp?id=79
    http://www.phlaudio.com/datasheets/38_pdf/5010.pdf


    In the earlier E2 clone thread I hinted at a idea of a JBL Suma (after Geddes).

    While I admire much of Earls' work I think a lot of common sense applies to controlling the effect of the room by adequately treating early and near field reflections with appropriate room treatments. It is quite easy for example control stereo image width and depth with some basic room treatments just like they do in major recording studios. Even so horn with constant power response and those with flat only on axis response will be explored.

    The notion of controlled and constant directivity will form a key aspect of the project where ideal and less then ideal power response will be examined and subjectively evaluated.. The effect and audibility of early and near field reflections will also be documented..

    As far as selecting horns is concerned the intent here being that the system will where possible offer a controlled polar response and low horn related distortions.

    From my own perspective this is as much about using a horn of the correct physical proportions rather than compromise performance for marketing or size considerations. I am not stacking horns for an array so there no point getting too excited about the cheapest, smallest horn to squeeze into the front baffle.

    A fundermental study of horn theory and this is abundantly obvious. Even Earl agrees a 12 inch (1 khertz crossover point) waveguide is better then a 10 inch and a 15 inch works best.

    Why use a pissy/sissy little ear lobe guide with a response like a wee dogs broken hind leg is beyond me . They are perfectly acceptable for SR applications but less than ideal for high quality audio playback where mininal reflections and diffraction distortions are preferred.

    There are pretty horns out there too like the Tad 1400 clones seen on Ebay.

    The thread has been place here to allow flexibility in using other than purely JBL drivers and parts to fine tune and optimise the system by selecting customised hand built woofers if required. In the case of the 1500AL it would be ideal but the cost and shipping are I imagine outside the scope of this project. Of course if I am convinced that a particular JBL woofer meets the requirements then it will be used. I have not determined what size woofer or how many per channel yet or what type of tuning .

    I dedicate this thread to our good friend Rich who it would seem is MIA by all accounts. I doubt if my woodwork will ever be up to Rich's standards but there will be little to moan about otherwise...LOL

    For those interested I will be selling off some 4345 related drivers at some stage....all going well.

    These link's represent the type of system I am considering. Nothing too outlandish but quality. As they say the devil is in the details but as you can see in all these images the horn is not small.....nor the woofer.

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ad.php?t=20088

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...5&postcount=52
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...5&postcount=52
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...5&postcount=52
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...5&postcount=52
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...5&postcount=52



    Ian
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    7,942
    Like any project there needs to be resources and at this point that primarily points to information and know how in terms of attempting to make your own horns.

    Thanks to Bruno Ginard in Lyon France for emailing details of some horn plans. I have fond memories of red wine tasting in Lyon!

    Here is an excellent web page on making your own hi end wood horns.

    http://www.geocities.jp/arai401204/index.html

    http://www.geocities.jp/arai401204/H.../A290-S90.html

    I should have details of the woofer (with Tad specification soon) and a CNC monitor horn is in the pipeline but that will be some time off.

    Ian

  3. #3
    Senior Member richluvsound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    london england
    Posts
    2,060
    I ain't missing

    just keeping busy with other passions.

    love to all, Rich
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    1,162
    Quote Originally Posted by richluvsound View Post
    I ain't missing

    just keeping busy with other passions.

    love to all, Rich
    Hey, you're still alive! Now we need Zilch to interpret those curves you posted.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Skywave-Rider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    313

    can't we all just....

    Quote Originally Posted by Chas View Post
    Hey, you're still alive! Now we need Zilch to interpret those curves you plotted.
    Yes.
    Gotta love the team.


    Alas, I am only a spectator....

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    7,942
    Ah there you are!.

    Nice to see you Rich.

    If you have French as a second language it may prove useful. They appear to quite engaged in audio.

    As far as the horn making goes I have not make any firm decision..just gathering ideas and some designsat this point.

    Ian

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    7,942
    I will post a simulation of the woofer sometime this week.



    Ian

  8. #8
    Senior Member richluvsound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    london england
    Posts
    2,060

    I'm watching !

    Hi Ian,

    I have been thinking seriously about a new speaker. I would like to move to somewhere smaller, the 45's are the only real issue. It will be great to see what you come up with.

    a mate !

    PS nothing French in my life anymore-only memories

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    7,942
    Okay,

    You should come to Australia and live in a beach house and paint visions of skimpy bikini's.

    I don't think this system will be too large, the horn will not be tiny though.

    Ian

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    7,942
    Quote Originally Posted by richluvsound View Post
    Hi Ian,

    I have been thinking seriously about a new speaker. I would like to move to somewhere smaller, the 45's are the only real issue. It will be great to see what you come up with.

    a mate !

    PS nothing French in my life anymore-only memories
    Rich,

    I would suggest there is none better than this offering by Jean-pierre:

    http://www.artec-france.com/etudes.p...11b8dca00cc48e

    http://www.artec-france.com/etudes.p...em=mediumgrave

    I have reviewed this designed and shared emails.

    Outstanding.

    If you still have the Tad 2002 then you can realise this design.

    The horn Jean-pierre has designed is very very good.

    http://www.artec-france.com/etudes.p...ct&item=filtre


    For those of you want to also down scale with a JBL woofer could use the JBL 1200fe if you have a Tad 2001 or 2002 but you will need to do a complete crossover design and access to test equipment. (I would describe the level of difficulty in doing that as high and should only be attempted if you have the time, skills and relevant test equipment)

    Ian

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Hungary
    Posts
    179
    hey, I tought about mounting a 12" Geddes front baffle (& seal the woofer cut out) on the upper half of a 4435, it'd look cool too.


  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    7,942
    Well I hope it does not get to noisy now the thread has been moved.

    As I said earlier I am not necessarily proposing to use stock JBL components or titanium based large format drivers. The reasons have been outlined earlier.

    Those when want to go that route should consider the Tad 4001 as your best affordable option. I may even look at the Tad if the opportunity arises. (some good deals SH on the Tad 4001, or the JBL 2441 aluminium based diaphragm that has been tested for perform well with some of the diy wood horns). Dont get me wrong, the 2452 series are nice drivers but even the acquaplas treated diaphragms are not in the hunt according to reports from Studio's hence they invariably use the Tad drivers.

    Of interest here is a link to the engineer of the Australian woofer that has drawn my attention. My understanding this they have a plant for making paper based cones with in house CNC tooling.

    I came across Lorantz when doing broad search for suitable woofers. Michail Brarabasz the MD of Lortanz responded to an email for information and advised he can spec make a woofer to Tad or better of his own design as a result of demand from the local market and is planning to provide a suitable CNC wood horn. It will be interesting to see what Michail comes up with. Michail has written an AES paper on diaphragms and is acknowledged as an expert in magnetic circuit design and voice coil engineering.

    I propose to visit the plant in the next few weeks.

    Lorantz Audio Services was born in 1975, starting with many speaker components and speaker tooling purchased from the closure of Plessey Rola Co. Lorantz Audio Services commenced producing 6€, 8€ 10€ and 12€ loudspeaker. Read more. The product range diversified to meet customer requirements, and the business was incorporated in 1990. In 1995 Hazel and Michail Barabasz of Lorantz were awarded the "Service to the Industry Award" by the Melbourne division of Audio Engineering Society for the development and manufacture of loudspeaker technology of the highest quality for a period of over 30 years.
    Hazel and Michail Barabasz recipients of the AES Services to Audio Industry award 1995.

    In 1995 Lorantz introduced CNC machining to achieve consistent high quality control standards in manufacturing


    http://www.lorantz.com.au/about.php

    http://www.lorantz.com.au/process.ph...system_designs

    http://www.lorantz.com.au/process.php
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  13. #13
    Senior Member richluvsound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    london england
    Posts
    2,060

    Uhmm!

    Ian,


    I could use a sub with the DEQX as a 3-way x-over or an augmented twin 1200fe type set up. Any idea how high the 1200 can run with 2002?

    Rich

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    7,942
    Quote Originally Posted by richluvsound View Post
    Ian,


    I could use a sub with the DEQX as a 3-way x-over or an augmented twin 1200fe type set up. Any idea how high the 1200 can run with 2002?

    Rich
    Rich,

    You wont need a sub with the 1200fe and I think that really gets away from the notion of a compact system. If you want disco levels then like forget it. This driver is at best 91-92 db sensitivity and its a 12 not an 18 inch woofer.

    Just stack them vertically if you feel so inclined but that is starting to look like a big box. So I would suggest one driver to start with or look for a 15 inch driver which is my preference.

    On the 1200fe crossover point you will need to explore this yourself and look at what JBL does with that driver in systems like the 4428 and the 5800. Start with an 18 db network on the woofer @800 hertz. The spec sheet on the 1200fe is self explanatory if you understand what sort of driver the 1200fe is.

    I have not heard the 1200fe set up with the Tad 2002 so I cannot make any recommendations.

    Its more a case of the horn you decide for the 2002 but again I would not push it below 800 hertz.

    The Tad 1102 is another really excellent driver and would be my pick .
    http://www.pioneer.co.uk/uk/products...102/index.html

    If I had the Tad 2002 () I would use the AR2140H horn with the Tad 1102.

    Image courtesy of Jean-Pierre Landragin

    The usual caveats apply. None of this is ever going to be plug and play.

    Also please respect that these diy offerings by Jean-Pierre are never to be produced for commerical profit.

    Ian
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    7,942
    Recources:

    Some people have suggested digital crossovers for flexibility.

    At some point I will look at extending SoundEasy capabilities for live digital crossover simulation using a high end 2 in 3 out PCI card as part of this project.

    This may prove valuable if some of the earlier and deeper style Tad horn designs are utilized where some for of time delay is required.The larger and deeper Tad horns specify a 4 inch driver. The Tad 4001/ 4001 appears the logical choice as a suitable driver.

    Another woofer that has emerged as a likely candidate is the AE 15M. The AE 15m allows running the driver up to 1.5 khertz acording to the designer will little loss in off axis response.

    I will post details of this driver in due course.

    I propose to arrange a visit to Lorantz in the next few weeks to look at their CNC wood horn developments.

    As can be appreciated there is stready progress and it is hoped the result will be something that actually sounds like real music and not just a loud noise. The intention being a bit more discerning over the choice of components and how they are used.

    Ian

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Quick & Dirty Modular Mains
    By lfh in forum Lansing Product DIY Forum
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 11-22-2011, 03:29 PM
  2. Quick and Dirty test ride impressions
    By goldcityspeaker in forum Lansing Product DIY Forum
    Replies: 65
    Last Post: 04-13-2006, 04:37 PM
  3. Quick & Dirty 4430-Inspired Two-Ways Part II
    By Zilch in forum Lansing Product DIY Forum
    Replies: 426
    Last Post: 02-15-2006, 07:53 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •