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Thread: Five-Screen reproduction

  1. #31
    JBL 4645
    Guest
    Found an interesting read about the scoring mix for “The Patriot” (2000)

    SCORING "THE PATRIOT"
    Jul 1, 2000 12:00 PM, Chris Michie

    http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_scoring_patriot/

    For the film score, the producers were fortunate to secure the participation of two-time Oscar winner John Williams, whose many screen credits include original scores for the historical dramas Saving Private Ryan, Schindler's List and Amistad. In fact, Williams has been nominated three dozen times since his first in 1967 for Valley of the Dolls, and hardly a year goes by without his name appearing on the Oscar ballots.

    Orchestral scoring sessions took place in mid-May at the Sony Pictures Studios scoring stage in Culver City. To record and mix, Williams brought in his longtime studio collaborator Shawn Murphy, an independent engineer who has recorded more than 190 film scores over the past two decades. In consultation with the producers and music editor Ken Wannberg, Williams and Murphy decided to record the 7.1 and stereo CD mixes "live," a working method that requires considerable accuracy and decisiveness in the recording process.

    "The vast majority of the recording I've done with John has been live mixed," Murphy notes. "Star Wars was about 95 percent live mixed. It works much better for [Williams] musically, and for me in terms of addressing any musical recording problems right on the spot."

    "For orchestral sessions, it's fairly common to record the soundtrack CD at the scoring session," Murphy continues. "We'll add a little more space to the 2-track mix because a lot of times we keep it fairly dry for the picture, but on this sort of score there's no reason why the CD can't come straight off the console."

    Though Murphy and Williams had agreed to deliver a 7.1 mix, a first for both of them, Murphy decided to monitor the sessions in 5.1. "My big problem with SDDS spreads in general is a lack of upward and downward compatibility," Murphy explains. "The 7.1 spread tends to sound poor when it combines downward to 5.1 and even worse when it goes to Lt-Rt for Dolby Stereo. And it doesn't make a good stereo for the CD." Monitoring his mixes in 5.1 provided Murphy with a reliable fallback position. "If there's any problem in the 7.1 spread, we can immediately go back to 5.1 and we know they work," he notes.

    Despite the fact that almost all audio post-production is now done on digital workstations, Murphy usually records to analog. "John and I vastly prefer it to digital," he says. "So we try to commit one generation to analog before we send it into an editorial computer if we can-the one generation of analog patina seems to be a nice thing to put on the sound before it goes to the Pro Tools or the Sonic Solutions."

    For his analog 7.1 master, Murphy routed the eight music channels plus pilot tone and timecode to a 15ips Studer 16-track, loaded with Quantegy 456 2-inch tape at a nonelevated alignment (200 nanoWebers/meter) and encoded in Dolby SR. Similarly, the stereo mix for CD went direct to a 11/42-inch format Studer, also 15 ips, Dolby SR. Digital safeties were committed to Genex 8-track MO and DAT formats.

    To provide for remixes, two backup 24-track Studers were fed the 7.1 mix and timecode, plus various solo mics and additional section submixes.

    "Any remixing that we might do is based on the recording we do on the session," Murphy explains. "But typically, we choose [a take] based on the live mix and leave it that way."

    FORMERLY MGM The Sony scoring stage, basically unchanged since its heyday as the MGM soundstage, has been the site of hundreds of historic recordings. "The room is 93 feet wide and 66 feet deep, and about 28 feet at its highest point-it has a slightly peaked ceiling," says Murphy, pointing at the roofline, dimly discernible above the ceiling trusses and air conditioning ducts. Built in 1929 and with a volume of around 160,000 cubic feet, the Sony stage is considerably smaller than Abbey Road, which is roughly 250,000 cubic feet. "So it's smaller in volume, but it has a good sound," Murphy says, noting that the reverb time is relatively short, a little over a second. "Some of the other scoring stages in town are more [reverberant]," he continues. "I think that most people would say that this room is the nicest compromise of volume to reverb time to liveness to control that we have."

    Murphy set up the large orchestra ("in the neighborhood of 95 players") in a standard configuration, with Williams' podium in front of the control room window, facing the projection screen. At Williams' request, the studio provided orchestra risers for the rear row of celli and basses, improving sight lines to the podium and increasing proximity to the room mics. "It gets a bit of air under the instrument and adds some resonance," Murphy says.

    As primary sources for his 5-channel stereo mix, Murphy used the familiar Decca Tree microphone setup with "spreaders." Three omnidirectional Neumann M50s suspended about 10 feet above the conductor's position were flanked by a pair of Schoeps 222s with MK21 capsules, each situated about 15 feet wide of center. These primary mics were fed direct to the multitracks, augmented as necessary by a variety of spot and section mics, some of which were used only for reverb sends. Two omni mics located high in the corners of the room provided an overall orchestra ambience, which Murphy routed to the stereo surround channels.

    Murphy's reverb setup included five channels of Lexicon 480 dedicated to the front channels, though returns were also routed to the surrounds at lower levels. As Murphy describes it, the orchestra presence in the surrounds is intended to be supportive. "It's not meant to call attention to itself-you wouldn't notice it unless it was shut off," he notes. As Murphy pointed out, the use of the surrounds in film scoring is restrained in comparison to 5.1 mixing for record, which usually assumes five comparable monitor speakers. "[In film], we use rolled-off surrounds, and we don't tend to put anything in the surrounds except distance mics or ambient material, unless there's a specific reason to," he explains. "Very occasionally there'll be an effect we want to sweep around into the surrounds-there'll be an instrument we want to put specifically in back. But that's not common, that doesn't happen very often."

    LIVE MIXES AUTOMATED The Sony scoring stage console is a 72-input Neve VR dating from about 1997. "Prior to that they had a modified 8128, vintage 1984," Murphy says. "That was only a 56-input console, so the 72-input has helped, though we often bring a Martech sidecar in, which expands this board to 96 inputs. That's probably the number that a scoring stage needs to have nowadays." For The Patriot sessions, Murphy used about 54 inputs; Sony also provided a DDA monitor console that stage manager Mark Eshelman used to create headphone mixes for conductor, soloists and section leaders.

    Murphy used the Neve's onboard Flying Faders automation on every take. "I like this automation, and it's unfortunate that, since Neve and Martinsound have parted ways, this automation doesn't come with Neve consoles anymore," he comments. Murphy used the Neve's preamps for solo and section mics, but routed the seven primary distant mics straight to tape via outboard preamps. The Decca Tree and wide-arrayed Schoeps mics were run through EAR tube preamps, while spot and solo mics were patched into Grace, Boulder and Avalon preamps; all were then multed to the Neve for the live 7.1 and 2-track mixes. Murphy's use of EQ was minimal: he used five channels of Avalon 2055 EQ on the five front mix buses (approximately +2 at 15 Hz, -1 at 400 Hz, +2 at 25 kHz) and dialed in console EQ on only three channels.

    MONITORING Murphy monitored the LCR mix through his three Wilson Audio WATT VI monitors, an evolution from the WATT I systems he began using in 1987. "In the SDDS matrix, the LE and RE signals are assigned 75/25 to left/center and right/center in the 5.1 crashdown," he explains. "The monitor panel in the VR desk does not have this capability, so I merely superimposed the LE and RE signals on the left and right monitor channels." Powered by Krell KSA-250 amplifiers through Transparent Audio Cables, the Wilsons were supplemented by Sunfire subwoofers for the LFE channel (generally referred to as "boom"), which had been aligned to 91 dBC. As Murphy notes, "the 0.1 channel is rarely calibrated, so you never really know how it's going to sound in the theater." The stereo surround mix was distributed through JBL bipole speakers mounted high on the side walls of the relatively large control room, but as Murphy had predicted, it was hard to hear if they were on.

    Scoring The Patriot took about two weeks, with 13 three-hour sessions scheduled for recording the score and a further two for source music. Throughout the afternoon session that Mix attended, Williams and Murphy repeated much the same process for each cue. After some rehearsal, during which Murphy perfected balances and any necessary fader moves, all four analog tape machines were put into record. As soon as Murphy felt he had a representative performance on tape, Williams and Murphy listened to playback, discussed musical or engineering adjustments, and re-recorded each cue until satisfied.

    Working with a conductor who decides on a master "then and there" is unusual, notes Murphy. "It's unusual in terms of being that definite about what you want and having an orchestration that's that complete. I've always thought that if you can avoid the generation loss, if you can avoid the technical elements of remixing and just do it live, that's the best."

    Having worked together on scores for about 18 pictures and almost as many album projects, Murphy and Williams are a comfortable and efficient studio team. At the end of the session, as players left the studio and the crowded control room emptied, Williams and Murphy prepared for a playback session to decide or confirm each cue's master take. Selected 7.1 master takes were then loaded into a Sonic Solutions system, ready for Ken Wannberg to take to the final mix at the Cary Grant Theatre.

  2. #32
    JBL 4645
    Guest

    Thinking out loud! Footsteps on the bus!

    One of the things I always notice is footsteps the footstep creates such a believable sound of incredibleness.

    This not only happened two days ago its something I’ve been aware of on my travels on shopping days.

    The footstep moves from the front of the bus after the passenger as paid. The footsteps start to move forwards as I’m facing forwards. The footsteps walked pass me at slightly higher level not much just a slight bit higher as the distant footsteps.

    Then the footsteps walk past me and that is the golden plus! They move in several channels if there was such thing for Dolby 5.1 7.1 or something beyond Dolby 16channles.

    What would be the required true amount of channels?

    In Dolby 5.1 or 5 channel since the .1 is not applicable here. You’d only get two channels left rear to left front or left rear to centre which depends on how it was mixed.

    In-between mix there would be phantom centre that will hover in foggy like sound to the listeners ears for brief less than 1 second. That’s not good enough.

    Now you can do the ole trick of applying a Dolby pro-logic decoder in-between to get the footsteps to have three sound locations but there is one huge problem!

    Deepening on where the camera is looking if its shot showing people getting onto a bus the camera would be at eye-level so the footsteps have to sound below as that is where the sound is heard not above or to the sides of the listener.

    So how many and this is the question? because each footstep would make a discrete sound in different locations on the bus!

    Should there be 9 channel below surround or 12 channel because cinemas are very wide and long so maybe 42 channel, error…! Now Dolby 16 has ran out of channels of billability!!

    I don’t think cinema could ever reach realism on the grounds that we hear ourselves. Its only a different listening experience is what we get. That is not how it sounds in the real world.

    Placing lots of surrounds next to each other or spaced apart along the sidewall/back wall and overhead and below will fool the ear into believing for short while. But when comparing real footsteps walking up and down past you several times you’ll hear that there is huge discrete difference between each footstep, over the random footstep sounds played over a large array of surrounds set beneath the cinema seats.

    I don’t think cinema will get a new sound format from Dolby until end of this decade at the moment 16channles is still pending and Dolby 7.1, 8channel just about it for the meantime. It hasn’t come far since SDDS8 in 18 years.



    Now if the floor tiles in my living room was discrete 294 channels of below surround that would easily surpass Dolby 16. There would be discrete sound movement of footsteps to Tie-fighters and X-Wings flying below in outer space scenes.

    I’d think hundreds of speakers would be needed literally to create something that is near believable.

    It would never be able to reach real world SPL db levels that can go well past our hearing threshold level unless your crazy enough to stand near to jet fighter without ear plugs and ear defends, otherwise we normal hear these things many meters away for our own hearing safety.

    Guns and explosions LOL will never sound real no matter what.


    Cinema seems to add on a few extra discrete channels once ever 10 years or so. Well we’re not getting any younger.

    I don’t see Dolby 16channel happening well into the 2049 maybe? I see them adding on 2 more before the end of this decade 9.1 2019 LOL 2029 Dolby 11.1 / 2039 Dolby 13.1 / 2049 Dolby 15.1 16channles!

  3. #33
    JBL 4645
    Guest
    http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/A...Whitepaper.pdf

    The Dolby wiring diagram for its surround formats for Dolby-EX in cinema the processor can handle up to 4 matrix outputs not 3 thou 3 seems to be the norm at (extracting the centre phantom from left and right surround) and the extra surround output has only been used once for We Were Soldiers (2002).

    Too bad mixes stopped there and didn’t continue to push it forwards a bit further as well as getting more cinemas installed with ceiling surrounds.

    Note: four green LED on the upper right of the Dolby SA-10 extra is the rear surround in Dolby stereo pro-logic optical operation.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  4. #34
    JBL 4645
    Guest
    Hmm, just another idea what Dolby should do with its 16channels?

    What if the stage speakers have an extra pair per LCR stacked side by side. Picture a JBL 4675-A with another one placed right next it but tight and another one.


    1) Left music
    2) Left effects
    3) Left dialogue panning

    4) Centre music
    5) Centre effects
    6) Centre dialogue panning

    7) Right music
    8) Right effects
    9) Right dialogue panning

    That’s 9 channels so far!

    10) LFE.1 subs to extend below stage speakers the entire width of the screen no matter what size!

    That’s now 10 used up!

    11) Left sidewall surround

    12) Right sidewall surround

    13) Left rear surround

    14) Right rear surround

    15) Overheard mono surround

    16) Below mono surround

    Total 16 channels

    Now with the LCR fronts music can play soft or loud without worries about adding compression so effects can play louder effects can play on their own dedicated channel as dialogue can play freely and louder than before or softer free from distortion.

    I think that’s better than my other idea for Dolby 16channels or 15.1 LOL



    The problem will be centre because any music coming from the centre will sound like its shifted to one side of the centre the same with effects. Blending some portions of the bass-mid into LF stage channels 4 and 6 would keep the sound uniform I guess.

    The music and effects would have to be shared between HF channels 4 and 6 by blending the music and effects into each from the decoder otherwise directional effects will sound like they’re coming slight to one side of the centre rather than a normal single centre where something has to give in loudness so why not share it the HF horns of today have high range over yesterday’s HF horns music should be a problem.
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  5. #35
    JBL 4645
    Guest
    Okay I gave it some more thought about the effects/music channel in the centre what if its speared out over a few extra stage channels. Now the problem here will be the centre like phantom sound image between music/effects as it would sound like centre mono until it pans smoothly over to the far left or right.

    I’m not sure how this would sound if sat front and centre, when effects start panning over the screen as they shift away centre due to large gap, still it’s only an idea.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  6. #36
    JBL 4645
    Guest
    Below surround and overhead surround hasn’t been market well with Dolby pushing 7.1 it seems quiet a waste of channels being added to stereo rear when those two channels could have been used for below and overhead discrete surround, thus starting on filling in the missing gaps.

    The sidewall surrounds in common homes work well when integrated with common surround playing on the rear wall just as it would be in the cinema. Centre back surround Dolby pro-logic can still work by extracting the (centre phantom signal from the stereo pair) and repositioning the sound directly behind the listeners.

    The matrix approach of panning sounds in anti-phase onto the stereo surrounds so that Dolby pro-logic decoder can extract the signal from within the rear (not the centre back as common mislead in home cinema magazines) where the editor wants you to belaive its only a 3channel decoding its not its 4 channels in the same way as Dolby stereo works for 4.2.4 matrix optical soundtracks only its been used for the stereo surrounds on one reported film We Where Soldiers (2002) http://www.smartdevicesinc.com/pdf/sonic_boom.pdf

    I think Dolby didn’t see it being practical to use in the home since it would require lots of loudspeakers fitted into the ceiling. Well some have families and miserable grumpy wife so not worth getting devoice, over it.

    Installing loudspeakers into the ceiling or even attaching them to the ceiling is easy. It’s not so easy when it comes to floor? The loudspeakers for the below surround, it’s best to keep with the same brand model for voicing.

    Concrete floors present a huge challenge and I think very few would start taking a road jack hammer to their floor!

    Wooden floors well that might be just a bit easy but still there is an issue with below loudspeakers.

    People tend to be messy no mater how clear we think we are all times of dirty and dust will full into the loudspeaker over coarse of few days, never-mind a few years, by which time the loudspeaker will so ruined and needing replacement along with rest of the surrounds to keep voicing the same.

    If fitted in the floor it would need metal grill placed over it reinforced to take the weight of a fully grown man or woman?

    The below surround can be placed underneath the seating but what type of seating?

    Sofas will only muffle the sound so you can’t place it underneath sofa highs will be lost and midrange muffled and lows well not so much I guess depending on the level?

    Underneath real cinema seats as they are fairly open all-around they would have to be attached securely so they don’t have any tendency to get moved around by feet or other, as this would mess the sound up after it’s been EQ balanced.

    The grey arrears marked above and below and placed in-between the rest of the surrounds indicates roughly where the overhead and below surrounds should be located in an ideal situation, (then again nothing is ideal for most homes) each have their own difficulties and problem solving.

    So we have 11 channels for the surrounds now working
    1) Upper corner discrete surround array left channel
    2) Middle discrete surround array left channel
    3) Lower corner discrete surround array left channel

    4) Below discrete surround array mono
    5) Overhead discrete surround array mono

    6) Centre back upper corner discrete surround array
    7) Centre back discrete surround array
    8) Centre back lower corner discrete surround array

    9) Upper corner discrete surround array right channel
    10) Middle discrete surround array right channel
    11) Lower corner discrete surround array right channel

    Listening to Sooty playing with tissue on the floor, the sound doesn’t come from anywhere else except from the floor surface in stereo.

    Maybe stereo overhead and stereo below so that now brings it to 13 not including LCR/LFE.1 which makes 17channles and well exceeds Dolby 16 by at least 1 channel.

    The sound rustles around the floor along with his paws running chasing after the tissue as he knocks it around thinking the tissue is alive? Cats are funny creatures. . So, listening to my cat Sooty does inspire below surround as my cat is at lower elevation than me.

    If and when this application will be used for home use let-along cinema I just don’t see it happening within the next 8 years. If it does go forward it will still offer centre phantom between the stereo pairs and lots more listening experimentation fun to play with.
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  7. #37
    JBL 4645
    Guest

    Thinking out loud!

    There’s something that’s never occurred to me before? Who says the rear stereo extra surrounds in Dolby 7.1 has to go on the rear wall?

    Since it’s a format that I rarely play on the SONY BDP-S550 bluray player, I guess I can get another cluster of JBL control 1 and finish off the overheard surround and place a few underneath the cinema seats?

    I know some of the sound cues won’t match the sidewall but its worth a listening experiment to see how involving it is?

    I can picture some of the Dolby TrueHD 7.1 STAR TREK re-mixes with U.S.S. Enterprise in STAR TREK II panning from underneath then the sound shifting panning to right sidewall as it approaches the U.S.S. Reliant

    The left channel placed overhead with the U.S.S. Excelsior in STAR TREK III has it pans from rear left to sidewall left appearing overhead then shifting panning slightly downwards to left sidewall surround arrays.

    Yeah that will sound very confusing!


    Another thing that came to mind in some of the helicopter sequences in We Where Soldiers (2002) some of the sounds should come from below as they head downwards not just aiming for the centre back surround but pitching a bit lower towards the floor area as if you where standing freely in midair with helicopters passing around you and over and below and though you, without hurting you, I’d say the sound would be somewhat different.

    I was thinking of crossover and some low pass filtering make channel for below using the overhead passed into crossover while the overhead plays as it is, the below surround can have different filtering

    I wonder what would happen if I placed another Dolby pro-logic decoder between the rear matrix and the centre back. Would it get so confused and produce random sound noise?

  8. #38
    JBL 4645
    Guest
    Re-listening to Mission To Mars (2000) on region2 DVD




    Dialogue starts of by being panned from left front over to the centre channel then passes over to the right front channel as the camera starts to move steadily around the crewmembers.

    Note: the Mickey Mouse image as the image fades the two large mouse ears Mars to right and the radar to the left with module in the middle.




    By now [Armin Mueller-Stahl] who plays Ramier Beck, dialogue has panned from LCR fronts to the right-sidewall-surround speaker arrays. There is still some faint echo dialogue on left and right fronts but that will go mute very soon, only leaving ambient air ventilation sound and Foley effects with occasional crewmember dialogue.





    By the time he says “frankly, we are stumped” it has arrived to the centre back surround arrays where it slowly starts to shift to left-sidewall-surround arrays.



    As Woody, listens to Ramier Beck he turns towards his wife, while Beck’s dialogue continues to circle the room behind.

    http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/e...sDVD62imag.jpg

    With Ramier Beck voice now heard in centre front that was quite an impressive moment done with atmospheric ambient effects and dialogue.


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