E2 clone

[4313B]

Like this one from over a year ago, showing the ugly-ass 10 dB suckout at 14 kHz using the 3" drivers on PT-F95HF?

I believe at that time I asked you how the combination sounded and you replied that it sounded fine. I really don't care what you measure, it has nothing to do with what I do.

I think we've made it pretty clear that the 2452H-SL is the better bang for the buck at very nearly the same price as the 2435HPL.

Please review the following comments made well before your measurements posts:

the 435Be and 435Al (2430 and 2435 are similar) have a substantial response problem around 10 kHz on many horns and are ceratinly dead by 15 kHz.

There is no way we could have just used the 435 and had it dump at 15 kHz. We needed to do something at least to clear 20 kHz and we didn't want to make a toy add-on device for a product of this stature.

Does it really matter that we go to 40 kHz or even 60 kHz? Good luck in figuring that out because I'm not going to touch that discussion with a 10 foot pole.

The 2435H is finicky as to what wave guides it works with because the phasing plug is so short.

Now, despite all that Greg decided to remove the 045 from his personal system and run the 435/H4338 all the way out. He designed a filter to facilitate that. Is it flat to 20 kHz? No. Did other people have a problem with that fact? Yes, they seem to freak out without that "flat to 20 kHz" spec. Does Greg care? No, it's his personal system and he felt that the gains were significant. Did he live with it forever? No, several years later he replaced the 435's with the 476's in his front left and right 2-ways (He left the 435's in the rear left and right 2-ways). He has stated that the 476's were a considerable improvement. Don and I both have heard his system with the 435's and I can't seem to express just how damn good it sounded. Outstanding comes to mind. I can only imagine what it must be like with the 476's, new electronics and better EQ on the four 1500AL subs.

I should probably add that the 045 is a really nice sounding driver and, as Doug has stated, it adds a degree of airy openess on the top end that one just can't get from running the larger compression drivers all the way out. So there's definitely a legitimate plug for the folks who like 3-ways and 4-ways.

Ask yourself why JBL never made a product using this combination.

I don't need to, I have all the information I need.

Despite the fact that the 435Be has an "ugly-ass 10 dB suckout at 14 kHz" on the PT-F95HF I ended up using the combination in my dual 12-inch two-way. Like I stated before, I personally didn't care for the K2-S5800 horn. Two reasons, I didn't like the way it looks and I didn't plan to use an 045. Since I wanted a two-way that means I also wasn't going to be using the S4600 horn either.

I decided on the cheap little PT-F95HF because it fit well into the enclosure design and I wanted to compare it with the 2344/2425. I already knew that the 435Be was a very nice sounding driver, once again, despite the "ugly-ass 10 dB suckout at 14 kHz". I also know that the 476Be is a bolt-in should I ever bother.

I raise a legitimate issue, and the only answer appears to be that I'm an irresponsible, incompetent asshole whose measurements should be taken down....

No, the answers were provided above quite some time ago. I know that you love listening to your graphs. I don't think anyone thinks your measurements should be taken down and I know some people take them for exactly what they are without judgement. Other people will need to do their own measurements for their particular projects.

My reaction was based on the post comparing the LE14H-3 and LE14H-4 and the question with respect to the distortion curves. I know that both drivers are very nice sounding drivers. And my thought was "here we go again..."

Anyway, Ian has some 2435 drivers and I guess he'll either use them, sell them or throw them away. :dont-know

[pos]

My reaction was based on the post comparing the LE14H-3 and LE14H-4 and the question with respect to the distortion curves. I know that both drivers are very nice sounding drivers. And my thought was "here we go again..."

This post was a question, and you and Jerry Moro answered it very well. Thanks for that.

Now, despite all that Greg decided to remove the 045 from his personal system and run the 435/H4338 all the way out

I personally didn't care for the K2-S5800 horn. Two reasons, I didn't like the way it looks and I didn't plan to use an 045. Since I wanted a two-way that means I also wasn't going to be using the S4600 horn either.

So the H4338 can be run higher than the H5800 or H4600?
Is it also the case for the H9800?
What are the fundamental differences between the H4338 and H9800?

[Robh3606]

Oh hell I missed all the fun.

Originally Posted by Zilch
I raise a legitimate issue, and the only answer appears to be that I'm an irresponsible, incompetent asshole whose measurements should be taken down....

Oh stop will ya! First of all, all the CLIO measurements posted on the forum have been on axis point and shoots. Yours, Widgets, mine, all of them. What we really should be doing is taking several measurements over our choosen listening window and have CLIO average them and give us a polar plot. That at least gives you a much more meaningful measurement.

Any of our measurements are severly limited in what they tell you about how a system will actually sound. I think we at times can place too much weight on these measurements. They are good for us becasue they help us move in the "right" direction and we can validate if the changes we are making are going the right way. They are of limited value to all others.

Even if we were doing a complete set like Geddes we would still have to sit down to see how it sounded. Measurements are just a tool they are not the end all and be all.

You have people who say they can look at the measurements and that tells them every thiing they need to know. Well good for them! I for one don't have the in depth experience and knowledge that these guys seem to have. No matter how my stuff measures I still need to listen to it to see if I am there.

Rob

[Mr. Widget]

I should probably add that the 045 is a really nice sounding driver and, as Doug has stated, it adds a degree of airy openess on the top end that one just can't get from running the larger compression drivers all the way out. So there's definitely a legitimate plug for the folks who like 3-ways and 4-ways.

Phew!

First of all, all the CLIO measurements posted on the forum have been on axis point and shoots. Yours, Widgets, mine, all of them. What we really should be doing is taking several measurements over our choosen listening window and have CLIO average them and give us a polar plot. That at least gives you a much more meaningful measurement.

I have been using CLIO for about 3 1/2 years now... not a terribly long time compared to how long I have been messing around with speaker designing and building, but it has proven a wonderful time saver. On occasion and as needed, I have run polar plots, distortion analysis, impedance plots, waterfalls etc., but I typically don't bother because they still don't tell me what sounds good and the time it takes to "really" measure a system can be considerable. However these measurements are incredibly useful in zeroing in on a problem which I heard in my listening to the system. I use these measurements to chase the causes of the "problem" more effectively, but by themselves without careful controlled listening, plots alone are just not that useful.

On the other hand, to help me slam a network together, or initially set up a system, taking a quick "point and shoot" (I like that phrase.) on axis plot of a system is awesome. I can quickly see if somebody is out of phase or some other wiring screw up occurred. An RTA is better than nothing, but having the power of a tool like CLIO once you begin to understand what you are looking at is simply wonderful.


Widget

[4313B]

So the H4338 can be run higher than the H5800 or H4600? Is it also the case for the H9800?

I'm not sure that is the case at all.

I believe the SK2-1000, S4600, S4800, S5800, etc horns are all integrated HF/UHF types.

What are the fundamental differences between the H4338 and H9800?

The H4338 is shorter and wider. Greg says it also loads better on the bottom end. Frequency response measures slightly different on both, I wouldn't say one is clealy better than the other in that respect at this point. I do know that some forum members don't like either one.

I was considering using the H4338 instead of the H9800 in Project May but preliminary measurements and listening evaluations have made that less likely.

Here are some more recent runs:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=215951&postcount=42

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=215952&postcount=43

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=215953&postcount=44

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=215954&postcount=45

First of all, all the CLIO measurements posted on the forum have been on axis point and shoots. Yours, Widgets, mine, all of them. What we really should be doing is taking several measurements over our choosen listening window and have CLIO average them and give us a polar plot. That at least gives you a much more meaningful measurement.

This came up again in conversation with JBL the other day. The DIY person is at a disadvantage with respect to meaningful measurements but that doesn't mean we can't come up with some really nice sounding systems.

Any of our measurements are severly limited in what they tell you about how a system will actually sound. I think we at times can place too much weight on these measurements. They are good for us becasue they help us move in the "right" direction and we can validate if the changes we are making are going the right way. They are of limited value to all others.

As are JBL's measurements unless we are specifically cloning something. Even then, not all the parameters can be known or remembered, especially with respect to legacy systems.

Measurements are just a tool they are not the end all and be all.

Yes, they are a tool.

You have people who say they can look at the measurements and that tells them every thiing they need to know.

Yes, and we call those people delusional. They love listening to their graphs.

Which reminds me! Compare these graphs:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...ad.php?t=10613

http://www.lansingheritage.org/image...345/page03.jpg

Phew!

Hey now! 045 lovers pay the bills dude!

I use these measurements to chase the causes of the "problem" more effectively

Definitely.

On the other hand, to help me slam a network together, or initially set up a system, taking a quick "point and shoot" (I like that phrase.) on axis plot of a system is awesome.

Another topic that came up yet again the other day. The success derived from LEAP is directly related to the quality of the data it is fed. The DIY person is at a disadvantage compared to the multi-million dollar facilities at JBL. Regardless, it is still quite fun and worthwhile results can be obtained. They use MLSSA and we use CLIO. The best we can do is take a ton of measurements and see what is real and what isn't. Probably the DIY systems with the best chance of long term success are those which deal with crossover points above ~ 1 kHz.

[Zilch]

Despite the fact that the 435Be has an "ugly-ass 10 dB suckout at 14 kHz" on the PT-F95HF I ended up using the combination in my dual 12-inch two-way. Like I stated before, I personally didn't care for the K2-S5800 horn. Two reasons, I didn't like the way it looks and I didn't plan to use an 045. Since I wanted a two-way that means I also wasn't going to be using the S4600 horn either.

I decided on the cheap little PT-F95HF because it fit well into the enclosure design and I wanted to compare it with the 2344/2425. I already knew that the 435Be was a very nice sounding driver, once again, despite the "ugly-ass 10 dB suckout at 14 kHz". I also know that the 476Be is a bolt-in should I ever bother.

Yes, and by now, everybody knows that I have worked with it quite a bit and like that waveguide as well. With 2452H-SL, there's a recalcitrant little response dip at I forget exactly what frequency. I don't hear it, so I'm willing to ignore it. I can't say I hear the big one at 14 kHz with 2435HPL, either, but I'm less willing to ignore that, when other options are readily available.

I followed the earlier experiments and discussions relating to 435Be two-way on H4338 with considerable interest. There weren't very many members willing to pony up the admission fee to participate, as you know. Problem was, when it came time to actually work with it, all of the curves had disappeared except Guido's approach extending the VHF out to 20 kHz. Very frustrating. I'm still waiting for 476Bes here for that project.... :dont-know

[4313B]

I can't say I hear the big one at 14 kHz with 2435HPL, either, but I'm less willing to ignore that, when other options are readily available.

I have no doubt at all that you can't hear the dip at 14 kHz. And don't ignore it, that's your prerogative. No one is faulting you at all for using the 2452H-SL. It's a slam dunk and you'd have to be pretty goofy to mess it up.

I believe that I have stated several times now that the 2452H-SL was the best bet for most people. I sincerely hope people buy tons of them.

Early on in this thread I erroneously posted my little project and your response was "I'm very interested in how well you've been able to make PT-F95HF work with 435Be/2435HPL, for example, as I haven't successfully made that happen, which is why I primarily use BMS 4555 or 2452H-SL with them...." well... I got four little 1/4-20 x 1/2" bolts and bolted the 435Be to the PT-F95HF then I bolted that combination into my enclosure. I took some preliminary measurements and put that data into LEAP and played around with LEAP for a bit to verify earlier solutions (I also took measurements of the 476Be on the PT-F95HF during the same session and played around with that data in LEAP as well). Early on this project was going to be a K2-S5800 "clone" with the 435Al replaced by the 435Be and 045Ti replaced by the 045Be. I made some changes.

I think the dual twelves are really nice and the 435Be's sound as good as I knew they would. Right now I am working on other projects though so I haven't built the charge coupled networks yet and probably won't for another six months or so due to lack of time.

I followed the earlier experiments and discussions relating to 435Be two-way on H4338 with considerable interest. There weren't very many members willing to pony up the admission fee to participate, as you know.

No, and I'm not sold on this thread either. I think the admission fee is too high for much interest. I think there were seven people total that bought all the components to emulate Greg's system.

Problem was, when it came time to actually work with it, all of the curves had disappeared except Guido's approach extending the VHF out to 20 kHz. Very frustrating.

It isn't time to actually work with it. I removed all the information so it wouldn't sit there for a couple years doing nothing. I already know how it all goes together and when I get the time I'll get it done.

except Guido's approach extending the VHF out to 20 kHz

Guido knows what he is doing and he's gotten the hang of Greg's filter designs. And this is a great example of a nice project - http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...t.php?p=195205

I'm still waiting for 476Bes here for that project....

Mr. Widget and Guido are waiting for their pairs too. And I have to say that I can't imagine what you would want with 476Be's. They are very nice compression drivers initially designed specifically for the 60th Anniversary DD66000. I hope your goal isn't to bolt them into a pair of old Lancer 55's in some garage with some lockjawed LE14A's and proclaim that you've just designed the perfect 2-way...

On the other hand, if you're going to do something real nice, that others like Guido or John H or Mr. Widget have done for example, then we're all eyes and ears.

Can we move on from this?

[Guido]

.....except Guido's approach extending the VHF out to 20 kHz.

I'm very pleased with the results.
I modified the GT network with a little HF boost LC combination ala 4430/35 and an additional notch. It sounds amazing.
I sure have extension to 20kHz. Lows go down to 30 Hz in room. 5.5 cuft tuned to 34 Hz.
Woofer network is from K2-9800. HP is 12uF. Series resistor I have to look up. Was it 21 Ohms??
Components
H4338
2435 aquaplased
1500AL

[4313B]

I'm very pleased with the results.
Components
H4338
2435 aquaplased
1500AL

[Robh3606]

Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
I wonder what would happen if you did measurements ar 7.5 degree intervals off axis?

On my waveguides, PTH1010 the 2435's rolloff above and below the horn. When I sit I am below the horns. That is why mine are "hot" out to 20K on axis. If I set them up rolled off on axis they don't sound quite right to me. Off axis they are very similar to the 16K roll off you would get with a 2344.

Rob

[Ian Mackenzie]

Yep.

See my comments in the compensation thread.

Ian