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Thread: E2 clone

  1. #1
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    E2 clone

    I have been pondering for a while on a new speaker project.

    Having bashed the idea of a two way there are some benefits.

    They can be quite sensitive and usable on a range of amps.

    A two way is also not so demanding of less than perfect recordings and can be easier to listen to.

    So my idea stems from looking at some of the JBL 2532-3 1.5 inch horns and using the 2435 be driver as the horn/driver.

    For woofers I was looking at 15 inch cores reconed as 2234's or similar.

    There are other variations using eighteensound horns and drivers and even a Le leach horn. Other woofers might include GPA 416 drivers.

    This should provide some interesting discussion.

    Ian

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    I have four PA cabinets that use the 2352 / 2450SL with the 2226H and they are the best vocal / playback set of cabs that I have used for PA in a long while. essentially a 4726A with lighter driver and bigger horn.

    Simple 24db LW at 800 with a small delay and CD / box eq and these work for any project - bar none.

    I did a quick compare with a 2435BE that has been coated and really did not hear a lot of difference but I felt the larger coil and somewhat affordable diaphram was better suited for outdoor / PA use.

    In the storage room I have (4) 2225 cores ( to make 2234 or 35 ), a pair of 4648 cabs and 2 more horns. I was thinking about a HT stack using the 2435BE for the rental house I own since I can bolt the cabs to the floor and hide the processing in the basement.

    Another thought was to make a set of cabs that are similar to the original everest and make a set of fiberglas horn inserts for directional but time is in such short supply I leave those thoughts for beer time.



    sub

    BTW - the 235X family is 1.5 - the altec stuff is 1.4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Having bashed the idea of a two way there are some benefits.
    The easiest combination is the LE14H-x with the 2435/435Be on a nice horn or waveguide. It sounds really nice and the LE14H-x has the "best" bandwidth of the newer woofers.

    Greg's combination of 1200FE-8 and 476Be/H4338 is fantastic but the 1200FE doesn't go as low as the LE14H-x so alot of people would probably prefer subs as well.

    I ended up going with the 1500AL and 476Be/H4338 in one pair and dual 1200FE-12's and 435Be/waveguide in another pair. I run the dual 1200FE-12's ala 4435 and Everest II and they are really killer. I like them better run that way instead of "K2-S5800 mode". I do not like the MTM arrangement and ended up with an MMT arrangement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    For woofers I was looking at 15 inch cores reconed as 2234's or similar.
    The 2234H's in 4435 or Everest II mode are really nice. The ME150 and 1500Fe should be as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    A two way is also not so demanding of less than perfect recordings and can be easier to listen to.
    Yeah... Greg and I listened to a CD or two that were less than "ideal" and we both were really surprised at how damn good they sounded on his system. It was a shock. Honestly, most systems just don't sound all that appealing to me. It seems alot of people like really bright, forward, grating sounds that leave me weary of it all.

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    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    Nice thread. Once I get Doc Mark to haul away those 4333 cabs, I might have some
    room to work on this again

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ad.php?t=12485

    There's also some related DIY horn work going on that I hope to see here soon.

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    Those are some pretty large horns.

    And I thought the H4338 was a PITA...

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    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    yeah... that was at least part of why that exercise stalled. Acceptable visual
    integration will require some creativity (or redefinition of "acceptable")

  7. #7
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    That's why I dumped the mini E2 design with the dual 1200FE-12's. I ended up with a very wide and shallow box to get the requisite volume while fitting in the H4338. To make the box appropriately deep I ended up with a really goofy visual design with a ton of useless volume and it had to go. Dan Ashcraft I am not.

    I'm really not liking the Project May design either. I am not at all a fan of MTM's. But, it will end up as designed by the design team and that'll be that. It's basically an E2 gone MTM as opposed to the original Project of a K2-S9800 gone MTM. Don can run it as a true MTM or as a vertical E2, whichever he prefers.

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    Thankyou everyone,

    There is some very nice information here.....a lot to think about!

    I guess I should get out the tape measure out over the weekend and see what will fit before I get too ahead of myself.....but it sure makes fun reading

    Edit. I have a bit over 1 metre..39 inches each side . The simpler route may be the more sensible one initially as offered by 4313B

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    Hi Grumpy,

    Can you tell use more about your project? Pics, Impressions?

    I figured the horn was agood place to start in terms of sorting out what I am planning to do.

    I have been reading up on the 2352 from the JBL data and it look interesting.

    Its is a big beast though. However having said that is would seem any CD bi radial doing 90 H x 30-40 V is going to be of those general proporitons.

    In respect of the idea of a clone I have been simply looking at phyically similar horns without getting too bogged down in technical stuff.

    There appear few side options with that type of pattern, the JBL 2353 mention in Grumpy's link , the DD CFD 1.5-90X Pro and maybe the Emilar Emilar MH-500. There are also some other diy horn developments. They are both in the 21 W, 14 H , 9 D sort of size. That is serious WAF control territory..LOL

    CFD 1.5-90X Pro
    http://www.ddshorns.com/catalog.php?page=CFD1590XPro.

    CFD 1.5-110 Pro
    http://www.ddshorns.com/catalog.php?page=CFD15110Pro



    Then there are seriously large non CD horns like the Le leach at are a in the order of 400-500 mm in diameter but they seem to beam somewhat at higher frequencies. I susepct users are so engrossed by the size and their midrange prowess that the HF beaming is secondary consideration or they use teired horns for different ranges.
    http://www.azurahorn.com/pages/jbl24...20AH50_jpg.htm


    Still the indications are if you can put up with a large horn they tend to work better.

    Odd as it may seem, the 9800 horn from what I can gather is tighter coverage pattern than the Everest Bi radial. I can only deduct that K2 was intended to be more toed in while the Everest is more a wall of sound.

    I suspect all this suggests I have two roads to choose . The full on road to an Everest clone or the K2/ Array style option. The former being more complex and challenging and the latter being more sensible.

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    I believe the H9800 and E2 horns are functionally similar. If I recall correctly the larger size of the E2 mouth was for visual effect. Don or Steve would probably remember better than I would.

    The measurements I have done with the H9800 and H4338 suggest that the 476Be was slightly better behaved on the H9800.

    I'd really like to hear people's impressions of the 2352/2452H-SL though. It seems like a significantly more obtainable configuration.

    I did mention bolting a 476Be up to a waveguide to Greg and he thought the result would be extremely smooth. Measurements seem to indicate that his supposition was right on. I think Zilch has been bolting 2452H-SL's up to waveguides to good effect. Mr. Widget might check a few out himself at some point. Maybe some TAD's too for those who like really good components.

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    Hi 4313B,

    It certainly looks interesting. The low end response looked much like the Everest horn from published data .

    Is a 3 inch diaphragm stretching it on the larger horn or is this a SR levels problem?

    A called the local agent yesterday and I can get them locally and they are avaiable by special order like a 3 month wait and the 2362 are Aud$625 each.

    Less expensive here

    http://www.directproaudio.com/shop/s...m?section=5196

    There there may be some on E bay or is SH dealers I will have followup.

    As a matter of interest to others who may be looking at organsing something like this it would seem deciding on what you want to do is the easy part. Getting what you want in terms of available parts is the challenge.

    Getting back to the horn I contacted DDS and they were quite helpful.

    Of particular interest is the CFD 1.5-110 Pro or the CFD 1.5-90X Pro. The reason for introducing these devices into the discussion is that the dimensions are far more tolerant being 10'' 'H x 21''W x 8''D for the CFD 1.5-110 Pro as opposed to JBL 2352 18"W x 22''W x 10''D.

    The 2352 is a nice horn but its dimmensions are somewhat awkward when you start looking at baffle layout and vertical positioning of the drivers relative to the listener ear height in the confines of a home listening environment. The CFD1.5-90X Pro is 14.5''H x 21''W x 9.5"D.

    The data on the CFD 1.5-110 Pro is found here (below). Rusty, the dude who answered my call was quite user friendly when I said I was only looking for two horns. These horns are not toys or junk but they are reasonably priced. They are apparently verywell constructed with strategically placed thick wall sections to control resonances. DDS supplies a lot of oem manufacturers. Perhaps other members have heard of DDS.

    http://www.ddshorns.com/catalog.php?page=CFD15110Pro

    The CFD 1.5-110 Pro is a 1.5" entry throat, consistent "Q" horn with an optimum frequency response of 800Hz to 16kHz. It has a smooth wide response across its 110°H x 42°V coverage pattern, which makes this horn an excellent choice for high quality reproduction in critical monitoring situations, or in high level foreground or club PA systems.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Is a 3 inch diaphragm stretching it on the larger horn or is this a SR levels problem?
    I would just try your 2435's and see if you like them. You might be surprised.

    Here's a quick snap of my 12-inch "2-way". I'm not real big on photos of works in progress, they are a long way from being done. Dual 1200FE-12's and a PT-F95HF with 435BE. The boxes are about the size of the old JBL L150 box, an inch wider and an inch or two deeper, and they are octagonal. Nothing special.

    Originally I was going to just clone a pair of K2-S5800's but I really didn't like the stock horn (with 435AL and 045TI) in that system and I didn't like the MTM arrangement either. Then I considered putting the twelves side by side and using the H4338 and 435BE or 476BE over them like a small 4355 type box but I didn't like the result of that design either.

    The H4338 and 476BE ended up going with the 1500AL. So I ended up with one pair of 12-inch 2-ways and one pair of 15-inch 2-ways instead of using the 1500AL's as subs.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    4313B,

    Thanks for the pic.

    I can see what you are saying now and I am starting to think the horizontal configuration might not be such a good idea.

    They are very nice. Pity I am got local I would grab'em off ya!

    One thing about this stuff is you easily start planning a trip to like Jupiter when in reality your "only" going to the moon.

    I found this box plan :

    http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/bil...eichnung1.html
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  14. #14
    Senior Member Hoerninger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    It is a VISATON design. More details are here:
    http://www.visaton.com/en/bauvorschl...struction.html

    ___________
    Peter

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    Hi Peter,

    I did not want to bring the brand into it but there you are.

    At least the drawing is useful.

    Ian

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