TAD vs JBL

[bstleve]

Hi all,

for my first post here, I would like to have your opinion :

TL-1601a are still most wanted (and so expensive) woofers, but I do not understand why. Technically, nothing special if you look the magnetic assembly cross-section (especially compare to JBL SFG concept), the cone diaphragm looks like any other one...

I would like to try them by myself, they are sold 750€ each in Europe (yes, more than $1100 !), and no discount is allowed by Pioneer.

So, how do they sound to your ears, are they really the best ?
Is there a JBL equivalent : a woofer able to reach a compression driver up to 700/800Hz, but with a reasonable low end ?

Regards.

Bertrand.

[speakerdave]

Comparisons are difficult, especially trying to do one for somebody else, and so in effect your question is unanswerable. The lastest technology is the JBL 1500Al, a very fine woofer. You might be able to get some in Europe, but they won't be cheap.

As for TAD woofers--Alnico magnets, stout frames, underhung voice coils, FAR in the 20's, worldwide reputation for quality--seems worth trying.

JBL and TAD both have made recent flagship speakers with 15" woofers playing to a horn (Everest II at 750 and TAD 2404 at 650).

David

[Mr. Widget]

Comparisons are difficult, especially trying to do one for somebody else, and so in effect your question is unanswerable.

I have never made a direct comparison, but do think the JBL 1500AL at about the same price or slightly higher than those TADs is probably a little better... that said, I wouldn't use any 15" woofer up to 750Hz in an all out best of the best type of project.


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think that is a broad generaliation and perhaps true for straight profile cones only (real piston range woofers). There is also a dilema on selecting the right compression driver and horn if you go that route.

In point of reference straight cone profile drivers have a pronounced break up mode that is deemed undesireable unless the crossover is carefully managed. The degree of breakup depends on a lot of other factors such as the cone material (mix) and the surround termination.

No doubt the Tannoy transducer engineers would take you to task (and GPA 604 people) but of course their 15 inch driver profiles are curved exponential or a derivate of such which have controlled break up modes.

Perhaps the more pressing issue is finding an affordable compression driver that can really handle it and sound good and a horn that does not sound like a horn crossing over at 750 hz.

In this respect the compression driver & horn bit is potentially for worse of both evils X@ 750hz.

They can sound horrible and be horribly expensive...... based on Tad/jbl diy systems I have heard unless you have a really strong technical support base. Be warned your project that might take years and not weeks or months to perfect even with a DEQX.

Hence 12 inch woofers are a good compromise on the contraints of woofers, compression drivers and horns as you can get away with a higher crossover point without getting too excited breaking any golden rules. They are also more affordable for us humble and sensible diy people who aren't interesting in re mortgaging the house.

Visation and Eignteen Sound make some exceptional drivers in case you are havng difficulty finding the right tad or jbl.

[Mr. Widget]

I think that is a broad generaliation and perhaps true for straight profile cones only (real piston range woofers).

Interesting point. In my sordid past I built some very "pleasing" systems using large JBLs with curvlinear cones and crossed them over way above 750Hz. However I wouldn't put those systems in the class of systems worthy of a TAD or AL1500. The curvelinear cone or any other cone operating beyond it's pistonic region is adding significant distortion into the mix.


Widget

[bstleve]

Thanks for your answers !

... the JBL 1500Al, a very fine woofer. You might be able to get some in Europe, but they won't be cheap....

David

That's a great speaker, but, as you said... not really cheap !

... that said, I wouldn't use any 15" woofer up to 750Hz in an all out best of the best type of project.
Widget

Well, I totally agree with you, and I do not understand how it is possible, but TSM1/TAD2401 seems to work very well, with a higher cross over frequency

I think that is a broad generaliation and perhaps true for straight profile cones only (real piston range woofers). There is also a dilema on selecting the right compression driver and horn if you go that route.

In point of reference straight cone profile drivers have a pronounced break up mode that is deemed undesireable unless the crossover is carefully managed. The degree of breakup depends on a lot of other factors such as the cone material (mix) and the surround termination.

No doubt the Tannoy transducer engineers would take you to task (and GPA 604 people) but of course their 15 inch driver profiles are curved exponential or a derivate of such which have controlled break up modes.

Perhaps the more pressing issue is finding an affordable compression driver that can really handle it and sound good and a horn that does not sound like a horn crossing over at 750 hz.

In this respect the compression driver & horn bit is potentially for worse of both evils X@ 750hz.

They can sound horrible and be horribly expensive...... based on Tad/jbl diy systems I have heard unless you have a really strong technical support base. Be warned your project that might take years and not weeks or months to perfect even with a DEQX.

Hence 12 inch woofers are a good compromise on the contraints of woofers, compression drivers and horns as you can get away with a higher crossover point without getting too excited breaking any golden rules. They are also more affordable for us humble and sensible diy people who aren't interesting in re mortgaging the house.

Visation and Eignteen Sound make some exceptional drivers in case you are havng difficulty finding the right tad or jbl.

I see what you mean... straight cone = low end with energy, but big troubles above break-up frequency.
I tried exponential cone, several years ago (Focal Audiom15H built with Altec 416 recone-kit), but it did not enjoy how it sounded : no deep bass, mid-bass coming from a cave...

My present loudspeakers are composed of :

- Beyma 15LX60 : 40-200Hz
- Monacor SPA-30/200PAM : 200-1000Hz
- Altec 909-8A + multi-sectorial exponential horn : 1000-7000Hz
- JBL 2405 alnico above 7000Hz
- modified Behringer DCX2496 active cross-over (passive cross-over between 909 and 2405)

It sounds not too bad, but I thought that I may go back to a three-way arrangement, by using TL-1601 and an Altec 288G instead of the 909...

[Mr. Widget]

Well, I totally agree with you, and I do not understand how it is possible, but TSM1/TAD2401 seems to work very well, with a higher cross over frequency

The JBL Everest II also breaks this "rule"...

I am not so sure that all three of those systems might not be "improved" with a midbass driver. Of course when you add a third driver to a two way there are trade offs. As always we are talking about juggling compromises.

...but I thought that I may go back to a three-way arrangement, by using TL-1601 and an Altec 288G instead of the 909...

I think you are in uncharted waters here and will have to try it for yourself.


Widget

[bstleve]

The JBL Everest II also breaks this "rule"...

I am not so sure that all three of those systems might not be "improved" with a midbass driver. Of course when you add a third driver to a two way there are trade offs. As always we are talking about juggling compromises.

compromises, as usual...

I think you are in uncharted waters here and will have to try it for yourself.
Widget

Well, I think I'll have to speak money with my wife

Bertrand.

[Ian Mackenzie]

An interesting contraption

My suggestion is if you plan to spend up big on drivers go for a proven engineered design. Otherwise its like going a Bunnings and buying a stack of lumber and trying to build a plane and hoping it will fly...the bigger they are the harder they fall.

Here is my first attempt at a 4 way. it started out as a two way Altec 515 with the horn you can see, then I added with 077, then the 8 inch Audax mid cone and eventually the 2245s..

I confess the 515 and the horn did not quite cut it as a two way. No top and no bottom. Madonna sounded okay though.

I actually sounded quite good as a 4 way after I had the crossover sorted out with IMP.

The guys at the Audio Club loved to hate me after the editor of Australian HiFi Greg Borrowman lifted an article in the club magazine I wrote about it and published it.

In the article which was titled "How to build a great loudspeaker without really trying" referred to it as full piston range system that could accurately play any genre of music at live levels without distortion.......................something you could never do with a panel speaker or full range driver.

I was of course referring to the Maggie and Lowther crowd which caused a religious up rising.

[speakerdave]

. . . . My suggestion is if you plan to spend up big on drivers go for a proven engineered design. . . .

I agree, that is, if you can get the information, drivers and horns. Could you give us an example, please?

What I figured out early on was that if you are building a design that can be purchased in the used market for $2-3000 or under it's better to lurk in the used markets and do the necessary bidding. I don't see how it's easier to build a good speaker out of less expensive drivers than with pricey ones. Maybe one's standards would be lower.

No, I think it only makes sense to go through what you have to do to make a good speaker if you are trying to make an equivalent of a really expensive speaker system (for me, $20k plus) that you know you would never go buy. Of course it's a bigger game, but so?

David

[bstleve]

An interesting contraption

My suggestion is if you plan to spend up big on drivers go for a proven engineered design. Otherwise its like going a Bunnings and buying a stack of lumber and trying to build a plane and hoping it will fly...the bigger they are the harder they fall.

In the article which was titled "How to build a great loudspeaker without really trying" referred to it as full piston range system that could accurately play any genre of music at live levels without distortion.......................something you could never do with a panel speaker or full range driver.

I was of course referring to the Maggie and Lowther crowd which caused a religious up rising.

Well, you're right : I've spend a lot of time building my system , but know it works fine (of course I've made a lot of measurements, with SpeakerWorkshop and a good sound card, and it was very helpful).

Honestly, my question is not how to spend more money in it , but is there a way to obtain more fidelity with three drivers instead of four... by using higher level speakers ?

For instance, the Beyma 15LX60 (very close from a 2226 I guess...) is a good bass driver, but the sound is very poor above 250Hz (heavy straight cone but 4" voice coil and strong magnetic assembly BL:20Tm)
In the other hand, the well known Altec 909-8A provide a non-aggressive detailed sound, but works better above 1000Hz, that's why I added the fourth speaker :

I've found it by reading this French site : http://perso.orange.fr/francis.audio...on_31cm_r1.doc

Bertrand.

PS : I have to confess that full range drivers are not my cup of tea ! I listen a lot of jazz, not mandolin (with my apologize for full range lovers)

[demon]

hello bertrand!

i cant help you with technical stuff, but i can tell you, and im a pro in those things, that the LOOKS of your system are absoluteley OVER THE TOP!!!!



(this is my system, its brandnew and has a similar feel, somehow:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...84&postcount=2 )


cheers,
mikey

[Ian Mackenzie]

Not really, if you go the 2 1/2 or 3 way route there are always going to be compomises.

[scott fitlin]

IMO, and I have TAD 1601A,S, 4 of them, I am currently using twelve TAD 1603,s in my basshorns, and I also have 12 JBL 2226H, a complete set for my system @ Eldorado.

I have listened to all of them extensively, and I like each woofer model, and brand for the things each excel at.

TAD 1601A, classic woofer with Al magnet, fairly compliant suspension, very clear, yet smooth sounding and makes HUGE sounding bottom end. In my particular application, the 2 reasons I didn't use all 1601A,s instead of the 1603, AND IN THIS order, are the alnico magnet woofers heavier bass sound, as compared to the 1603, or JBL 2226H, also was softer to my ears, and with todays dance music, I prefer the slightly tighter, and chalkier sound of the ferrite magnet woofers. The 2nd reason was price, BUT, If I had LOVED the 1601A or 1601B, I would have probably gone that way, in spite of alnico mag drivers HELLACIOUSLY expensive cost.

The TAD 1603. Great woofer. Great sounding cone. The low end TAD,s reproduce is HUGE, building rocking, but clean, well defined, and the 1603 is a TOUGH driver. Reliabilty is fantastic, they don't break, they take whatever I have thrown at them, and sound fantastic. They have a nice deep sounding, and round bottom end, and SMOOOOOTH low mid register. Drums have such a nicely, well damped sound, very articulate, clear, punchy and slightly warmish sounding too. Kick drum has a definite JBL,ish tone IMO, BOMP BOMP BOMP, tight, taught, rhythmically propulsive toe tapping sound. The 1603,s higher flux density in the magnetic gap gives this woofer a slightly more prominent low mid register than the comparable JBL 2226H, and THIS is the main reason why I used this woofer over the JBL 2226H. And they are smooth, clean, and CLEAR, with snap, and dynamic transient response capabilities as well. At the time when I purchased my set of 14 TAD 1603,s, gotta have spares, they only cost 25.00 more than the JBL 2226H. So, cost wasn't even a thought. Of course, today, 2-3 years later, with the prices of everything rising to PROHIBITIVE EXTREMES, COST is a concern, and can alter a decision I may have to make, even if not my 1st choice sonically.

The JBL 2226H. GOOD woofer. INCREDIBLE slam, and punch, well it,s JBL, what else is new? Snare drums punch out at you with scary and dynamic force. Tight, clean, and snappy bass. It isn't as deep sounding as it,s TAD counterpart, and I liked the slightly deeper and quite audible bass response of the TAD, rounder sounding IMO. The JBL surpasses the TAD in the sheer explosive, transient response department with music that has large scale dynamics, but the TAD is no slouch either, JUST that the JBL does the JBL things in a more pronounced fashion. As I said, for sheer, clean, and DEFINITELY JBL bass slam, the 2226H is IT! The JBL 2226 has a more recessed sounding low mid, though, than the TAD, and since I MUST use my 15,s up to 750hz, this was the DECIDING factor of driver choice. Due to ceiling height limitations of my place, and that my stacks have ONLY 2 inches of clearence from the steel grid, DC electrified drop ceiling, I cannot go 4 way in my full range, and add 10in or 12in dual low mid horns, so, low mid performance is critical to me. I'm not saying the JBL wasn't good. IT IS, but, I prefer the slightly more prominent low mid register of the TAD. The 2226 is also a REALLY TOUGH driver, hard to break em, and IF you do, your doing something wrong.

I prefer JBL compression drivers to ANY of the TAD comp drivers, and to date, the only setups I have liked the TAD compression drivers in , are 2 ways, woofer and horn.

Since the 1500AL is not a driver intended for my application, I have no experience with it, and I base my opinions within the confines of the specific models I have used, that are suitable for my application.

My 2 cents!

[Andyoz]

The guys at the Audio Club loved to hate me after the editor of Australian HiFi Greg Borrowman lifted an article in the club magazine I wrote about it and published it.

I used to read Australian HiFi.

Can you post a scan of the article, I'd like to read it