TAD vs JBL

[bstleve]

Hi all,

for my first post here, I would like to have your opinion :

TL-1601a are still most wanted (and so expensive) woofers, but I do not understand why. Technically, nothing special if you look the magnetic assembly cross-section (especially compare to JBL SFG concept), the cone diaphragm looks like any other one...

I would like to try them by myself, they are sold 750€ each in Europe (yes, more than $1100 !), and no discount is allowed by Pioneer.

So, how do they sound to your ears, are they really the best ?
Is there a JBL equivalent : a woofer able to reach a compression driver up to 700/800Hz, but with a reasonable low end ?

Regards.

Bertrand.

[speakerdave]

Comparisons are difficult, especially trying to do one for somebody else, and so in effect your question is unanswerable. The lastest technology is the JBL 1500Al, a very fine woofer. You might be able to get some in Europe, but they won't be cheap.

As for TAD woofers--Alnico magnets, stout frames, underhung voice coils, FAR in the 20's, worldwide reputation for quality--seems worth trying.

JBL and TAD both have made recent flagship speakers with 15" woofers playing to a horn (Everest II at 750 and TAD 2404 at 650).

David

[Mr. Widget]

Comparisons are difficult, especially trying to do one for somebody else, and so in effect your question is unanswerable.

I have never made a direct comparison, but do think the JBL 1500AL at about the same price or slightly higher than those TADs is probably a little better... that said, I wouldn't use any 15" woofer up to 750Hz in an all out best of the best type of project.


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think that is a broad generaliation and perhaps true for straight profile cones only (real piston range woofers). There is also a dilema on selecting the right compression driver and horn if you go that route.

In point of reference straight cone profile drivers have a pronounced break up mode that is deemed undesireable unless the crossover is carefully managed. The degree of breakup depends on a lot of other factors such as the cone material (mix) and the surround termination.

No doubt the Tannoy transducer engineers would take you to task (and GPA 604 people) but of course their 15 inch driver profiles are curved exponential or a derivate of such which have controlled break up modes.

Perhaps the more pressing issue is finding an affordable compression driver that can really handle it and sound good and a horn that does not sound like a horn crossing over at 750 hz.

In this respect the compression driver & horn bit is potentially for worse of both evils X@ 750hz.

They can sound horrible and be horribly expensive...... based on Tad/jbl diy systems I have heard unless you have a really strong technical support base. Be warned your project that might take years and not weeks or months to perfect even with a DEQX.

Hence 12 inch woofers are a good compromise on the contraints of woofers, compression drivers and horns as you can get away with a higher crossover point without getting too excited breaking any golden rules. They are also more affordable for us humble and sensible diy people who aren't interesting in re mortgaging the house.

Visation and Eignteen Sound make some exceptional drivers in case you are havng difficulty finding the right tad or jbl.

[Mr. Widget]

I think that is a broad generaliation and perhaps true for straight profile cones only (real piston range woofers).

Interesting point. In my sordid past I built some very "pleasing" systems using large JBLs with curvlinear cones and crossed them over way above 750Hz. However I wouldn't put those systems in the class of systems worthy of a TAD or AL1500. The curvelinear cone or any other cone operating beyond it's pistonic region is adding significant distortion into the mix.


Widget

[bstleve]

Thanks for your answers !

... the JBL 1500Al, a very fine woofer. You might be able to get some in Europe, but they won't be cheap....

David

That's a great speaker, but, as you said... not really cheap !

... that said, I wouldn't use any 15" woofer up to 750Hz in an all out best of the best type of project.
Widget

Well, I totally agree with you, and I do not understand how it is possible, but TSM1/TAD2401 seems to work very well, with a higher cross over frequency

I think that is a broad generaliation and perhaps true for straight profile cones only (real piston range woofers). There is also a dilema on selecting the right compression driver and horn if you go that route.

In point of reference straight cone profile drivers have a pronounced break up mode that is deemed undesireable unless the crossover is carefully managed. The degree of breakup depends on a lot of other factors such as the cone material (mix) and the surround termination.

No doubt the Tannoy transducer engineers would take you to task (and GPA 604 people) but of course their 15 inch driver profiles are curved exponential or a derivate of such which have controlled break up modes.

Perhaps the more pressing issue is finding an affordable compression driver that can really handle it and sound good and a horn that does not sound like a horn crossing over at 750 hz.

In this respect the compression driver & horn bit is potentially for worse of both evils X@ 750hz.

They can sound horrible and be horribly expensive...... based on Tad/jbl diy systems I have heard unless you have a really strong technical support base. Be warned your project that might take years and not weeks or months to perfect even with a DEQX.

Hence 12 inch woofers are a good compromise on the contraints of woofers, compression drivers and horns as you can get away with a higher crossover point without getting too excited breaking any golden rules. They are also more affordable for us humble and sensible diy people who aren't interesting in re mortgaging the house.

Visation and Eignteen Sound make some exceptional drivers in case you are havng difficulty finding the right tad or jbl.

I see what you mean... straight cone = low end with energy, but big troubles above break-up frequency.
I tried exponential cone, several years ago (Focal Audiom15H built with Altec 416 recone-kit), but it did not enjoy how it sounded : no deep bass, mid-bass coming from a cave...

My present loudspeakers are composed of :

- Beyma 15LX60 : 40-200Hz
- Monacor SPA-30/200PAM : 200-1000Hz
- Altec 909-8A + multi-sectorial exponential horn : 1000-7000Hz
- JBL 2405 alnico above 7000Hz
- modified Behringer DCX2496 active cross-over (passive cross-over between 909 and 2405)

It sounds not too bad, but I thought that I may go back to a three-way arrangement, by using TL-1601 and an Altec 288G instead of the 909...

[Mr. Widget]

Well, I totally agree with you, and I do not understand how it is possible, but TSM1/TAD2401 seems to work very well, with a higher cross over frequency

The JBL Everest II also breaks this "rule"...

I am not so sure that all three of those systems might not be "improved" with a midbass driver. Of course when you add a third driver to a two way there are trade offs. As always we are talking about juggling compromises.

...but I thought that I may go back to a three-way arrangement, by using TL-1601 and an Altec 288G instead of the 909...

I think you are in uncharted waters here and will have to try it for yourself.


Widget

[scott fitlin]

TL-1601a are still most wanted (and so expensive) woofers, but I do not understand why. Technically, nothing special if you look the magnetic assembly cross-section (especially compare to JBL SFG concept), the cone diaphragm looks like any other one...



Bertrand.

What one is paying for when purchasing any PREMIUM products, is quality of materials used, AND TIGHT manufacturing tolerances, and ultimate performance.

The TAD,s cone may LOOK like any other one, but thats about it. However, if you look carefully at the cone of a JBL 2226H and a TAD 1603, you will notice differences. The JBL cone has shiny slivery, shiny threads, that are glass threads,. Fiberglass to be exact. The TAD cones do not seem to have these in their cones. So, while a cone may LOOK like almost any other, unless you know the exact composition of the cones, I assure you, they are not the same. And the cone is MAJOR important, it has MUCH to do with the sound of the driver. JBL uses good cones, made to tight specifications, and size, and weight, and what they consider the best materials for their drivers. And TAD cones are made from what they consider to be the best materials for the particular type of driver. Weight, shape, and size is important, variations of just a few grams of cone weight, can have very audible effects on woofers sound.

Baskets used for premium models of a brands drivers also tend to be of higher quality, with more exact tolerance as well. You pay for this, and the basket is important.

Alnico magnets need cobalt to make them, and cobalt is extremely expensive. ANY driver that uses an alnico magnet will be dramatically more expensive than a similar looking driver that uses a ferrite magnet.

Voice Coils! Very important, and VERY critical component of any loudspeaker. Unfortunately, we don't get to see the VC until we blow a speaker, and see the coil at the recone shop! LOL! but, wire, and type, edgewound cost more than round, and TAD still uses copper edgewound ribbon wire for their windings, with manufacture of VC to be made to exacting specifications. JBL uses aluminum edgewound ribbon wire, for the VC of the 2226H. Comparable woofers, yes, but made with different materials, even though, they may look very similar. And looking similar is where it all ends, as both woofers each sound distinctly " DIFFERENT " from each other.

Now, engineers at companies choose the materials of construction for their products with great care. They don't just use this or that. Cost of materials may be one reason, performance aspects another, and when premium drivers are designed, they usually use better grades of materials than lower eschelon products. With the TOP END COMPONENTS OF A BRAND, utilizing cost no object materials.